Counterpoint, how difficult is it to learn and what are the benefits?

[Broyale]

I was watching a Hal Galper masterclass on YT when he said something that struck me. He discussed during his study of Bill Evans, that the main thing he learned about himself through Bill was the desire to understand counterpoint. This is an area I had always wanted to understand, but never felt quite ready for it. I have a decent grasp of basic theory from two semester of college level Music Theory and two years of classical piano (and, of course, my study of the guitar), BUT, this is something I know in my heart I need as my long-term goal is to arrange and play chord-melody. I've seen a few posters on here stress the importance of counterpoint, but what is it exactly, and how difficult is it to learn? Hal says that it takes 7 years to learn counterpoint and I'm okay with that, but is it worth it?

[JensL]

I had to do a course for 1 year at the conservatory, but it did not really do anything for me. I know my that some people liked it though so if it intrigues you I'd say go for it.

7 years sounds a bit much to me, but I can't watch the video here.

Jens

[marcwv]

I think the first thing that has to be understund is that in general all music theory and rules add up to one thing a better sound ...a more intriguing sound!
The value of counterpoint is that instead of playing just block cords....there is a more lineare connection between the cord tones in a progression of chords ( Good voice leading). These tones that connect underneath the melody form an independant melody or voice which adds character and beauty to the musical theme.
I do feel that Pianist more easily gravitate to this style of playing because of the chord tones being under each finger and allowing changing a tone without repositioning the whole hand.
All that being said I find some good examples good voice leading on this site at times!
Marc

[TH]

There were many things I never expected to effect me deeply when I studied them in school. Counterpoint was always an enviable skill. But when I learned the how to's, and had to do regular assignments, and REALLY immersed myself in the task, it changed my life profoundly. As Marc pointed out, the value is in linear horizontal voices in equal play with vertical movements. It's a big area of study when you don't have the skills, can't imagine how it's done. But once you become proficient, it puts you on a completely different plateau.

I now think in linear horizontal ways, and the awareness and resulting control is a really powerful tool.
Before you get caught up in how much work it will be, whether it's worth the effort, how you can use this, find yourself a few Bach chorales, and sit down, do a harmonic analysis of them. Play them on a piano and if you don't play piano, learn enough for you to do this. Then play them in two voices, three voices and 4 voices. This will give you an idea of how naturally beautiful counterpoint can be, and see the purpose of line as the travel from chord tone to chord tone.

I'll leave it to you to discover the revelations resulting from this process. I'll say it can be done and I'll say it was much easier when done with others. Perhaps if you began a study group in a thread here. When I think of the real value of academic study in terms of jazz, becoming conversant in the practices of counterpoint is one of the reasons I say yes.

The seven year goal, you will get a level of real mastery in that time, but even in 3 or 4 months of real committed study you'll start to get results.
Bach chorales. Begin there.
David

[targuit]

I would tend to agree with the value and the challenge of studying counterpoint. My experience of counterpoint has been based upon the works of the master, JS Bach. Although I have read and am quite familiar with the rules of counterpoint, species, etc, I think I assimilated it more than studied it through playing lute works such as the Bach Suites and other Baroque music.

[JensL]

So apparently people have different experiences with counterpoint.

I can sum up what I found useful after a year in a class with all the early music guys(they are btw all nice guys!) writing 1 and 2 parts with or without lyrics following the rules (maybe we did 3 part too, I don't remember anymore):

1. The strongest melody is a stepwise melody

2. A large intervallic leap has to be resolved in the opposite direction in a stepwise manner.

You can check any Parker solo or Bach lute piece to see how it is used.

We did do a lot of analysis and writing of chorales in the normal theory classes that is indeed much more useful, but not what I would describe as counterpoint.

The Hal Galper video is indeed great, as are most of his stuff

Jens

[GetReadyMan]

I haven't studied counterpoint, but most people mention Fux's book when talking about it. Not always favorably!

Study of Counterpoint: From Johann Joseph Fux's Gradus Ad Parnassum: Johann Joseph Fux, Alfred Mann: 9780393002775: Amazon.com: Books

[TH]

Broyale. I wanted to follow up my post with a little practical musing. This is such a big topic, and I do want to know your motivation. I ask because what you get out of this study will take time, and how long it takes will really depend on what you already know and how much time you can put in.
A few initial thoughts though. Although the proper study of 16th century counterpoint, later versions, species counterpoint and the related forms of voice leading studies can take an enormous amount of time, make sure you're sufficiently motivated and with good reason. With good motivation, you will get something out of every step.
There are LOTS of rules about what you can and can't do in the "proper" study of counterpoint. As you study, it's going to be helpful to have a teacher; one who can spot the errors, the places you may have missed, parallel movements that may have appeared in octave transposed voices, etc.
You can get "light" versions of this study. That's why I suggested looking at the chorales. That is not, as Jens pointed out, the proper example of counterpoint but rather an excellent and elegant demonstration of where this pursuit can lead as far as movement of individual voices in concert with harmony.
Do initial work and get your bass clef chops up. You'll need to work with piano range to visualize movement over this range.
PLAY ALL YOUR EXAMPLES. I cannot over-emphasize this. It's so much more important for you to get this in your ear, especially as a real time improvisor. Keep it real. It'll also get into your own playing faster if it's internalized through the ear and if your writing is motivated by sound rather than dots on a graph.
Are you familiar with Bach's two part inventions? Have a close look. Have a close listen. (Check out Shastakovich's preludes and fugues too)
Remember, though, that lots of people play Bach everyday, most will be able to memorize and perform it without the slightest idea of the craft behind the composer's syntax. Being able to read a book is a far cry from being able to write a book, no less command the language. When it comes to counterpoint, there is the talk and there is the walk.

I asked initially what your motivation is, not so much for my curiousity-though I'd like to know, but so you can keep this in mind in addition to all the other things that go into being a convincing player. Plenty of guitarists play without voice leading, and there are still those who believe that the guitar doesn't lend itself to that way of thinking/playing.
You may find that fingerstyle or some kind of alternate to strummed rhythm chords may be helpful if not necessary.
You may find that awareness of root and top voice movement necessitates a whole lot more movement both across and up and down the neck (and both at the same time) and that may fly in the face of chord grab thinking.
You may find that the voice of authority, in teachers trained in other ways of playing harmony or armchair amateurs will have little or nothing to say that will actually help you. In other words, know that you may very well be on your own in undertaking this. But it can be done. There was only one Bill Evans when he arrived on the scene. There was only one Lennie Tristano when he arrived on the scene. There were no guitarists doing this and there still are very few that have tackled the guitar is a voice led instrument.
Go for it. Good luck.
David

[dingusmingus]

Steve Herberman has some classes on counterpoint on Mike's Master Classes. I haven't checked them out, but I study with Steve, and his thinking on separate voices within a chord is deep.
Contrapuntal Triad Pairs part 1: Close-Voiced Triads | Lesson by Steve | Mike's Master Classes

[dasein]

I haven't studied counterpoint, but most people mention Fux's book when talking about it. Not always favorably!

Study of Counterpoint: From Johann Joseph Fux's Gradus Ad Parnassum: Johann Joseph Fux, Alfred Mann: 9780393002775: Amazon.com: Books

Fux's book uses Palestrina as its model, rather than someone more tonal like Bach, so keep that in mind.

but it's a very good book that's been used by composers for hundreds of years now. easy to read, with a conversational tone, and almost all of the "rules" will still apply. if it was good enough for Mozart and Beethoven...

plenty of good books on the subject. Knud Jeppesen's book is 80 years old, and still very good. again, it's almost entirely about Palestrina, but Palestrina is a LOT easier to digest than Bach when you're first learning.

Salzer and Schachter's book on counterpoint is also very solid, probably the most practical and useful "Schenkerian" text around.

for studying Bach's counterpoint, Thomas Benjamin had a book out that's unfortunately out of print very difficult to find. you could check your local library (if it hasn't been stolen by some unscrupulous music student yet!)

and finally, if you REALLY want to get deep into it, there are the two books by Taneyev on convertible counterpoint and canon. the first is available in English, if difficult to find. the latter, as far as I know, is only available in English as part of a student's doctoral thesis.

fair warning: they are QUITE difficult and dense, with very unusual notation, a fair amount of math (certainly not complicated math, but it's there), and a pedagogical style that doesn't exactly hold your hand. but if you can get through it, you'll be able to compose contrapuntal acrobatics that other musicians can only dream of.

[mr. beaumont]

For counterpoint in a jazz sense, transcribe some gerry mulligan/paul desmond cuts, or jimmy and doug raney. There's a masterclass in there.

[TH]

For counterpoint in a jazz sense, transcribe some gerry mulligan/paul desmond cuts, or jimmy and doug raney. There's a masterclass in there.

Some nice things from Joe DiOrio and Mick Goodrick too. Mick's duos with Wolfgang Muthspiel were also inspirational.
Lennie Tristano had a school of players that were taught by him, Warne Marsh, Lee Konitz, and their playing reflects an intricate interplay of melodic and harmonic dialogue.
David

[targuit]

"There were no guitarists doing this and there still are very few that have tackled the guitar is a voice led instrument.
Go for it. Good luck."
David

I don't know, David. A few names come to mind.

Ralph Towner. An example would be his arrangement of I Fall In Love Too Easily. I would link to YT, but you easily bring it up.

Gene Bertoncini. Another nice YT performance of his is entitled something like "A night with G. Bertoncini". A series of nice performances. Gene is grounded in classical technique, which leads to a contrapuntal approach in solo arrangements.

Jeff Linsky is another guitarist who is capable of playing in a contrapuntal fashion. But it is true that fugues are a bit out of fashion these days.

Just this last weekend I was writing an arrangement of What Are You Doing The Rest of Your Life (damn title is too long). Anyway, I sketched it out on Sibelius initially in the key of Am, which is what Johnny Smith did it in. This key lends itself beautifully to voice leading with the descent of the bass note chromatically from A to F and then from B to G# and finally E. All the while you can articulate the melody and harmony very effectively in a counterpuntal fashion. For example I mirror the bass descent as an inner voice with the G# on the sixth fret fourth string descending down to meet the F of the Bm7b5/F before the turnaround E7b9 of the first verse. I ultimately had to revise to the key of F#m to accommodate a comfortable tenor vocal range, but the voice leading remains effective and playable. But that is just one example. I realize it is not an academic original composition, but the principles are the same.

[Broyale]

Ralph Towner.....hahhahhahha....I am working on Icarus right now!
That is one hard f&*k song to nail, but it sounds so gooooood.

By the way, thanks for all the tips and suggestions, guys.

[trivial post-it]

"There were no guitarists doing this and there still are very few that have tackled the guitar is a voice led instrument.
Go for it. Good luck."
David

I don't know, David. A few names come to mind.

Ralph Towner. An example would be his arrangement of I Fall In Love Too Easily. I would link to YT, but you easily bring it up.

Gene Bertoncini. Another nice YT performance of his is entitled something like "A night with G. Bertoncini". A series of nice performances. Gene is grounded in classical technique, which leads to a contrapuntal approach in solo arrangements.

.

What is your point? I think both of these players at least had grounding in the classical tradition. Towner was a pianist long before he even picked up a guitar. I don't see that a lot in traditional jazz guitar. Targuit you certainly have a lot to say. We are lucky to have you here. I just don't get your point a lot of the time.

[targuit]

Well, that's because I'm trying to boggle your mind, Post-it. Take a listen to the Ralph Towner video on YT that I alluded to. Ralph, who studied classical guitar at the age of twenty and at one point under Karl Scheit, if I recall, is also a jazz pianist and composer.

He also graduated college with a BA in music composition, plays a couple of wind instruments, and did some graduate study as well in music composition. That is off the bios on the Oregon website.

[jazzmankg]

Jim Hall's work with others comes to mind on the subject of interactive group counterpoint. His work with Jimmy Raney on Two Jims and Zoot, duos with Evans and also Bob Brookmeyer. He just has the knack.

The spirit of the Galper's counterpoint reference has to do with hearing chords as independent voices. And really learning to hear/play that way as the approach. This is especially apparent when you listen to the middle voices of Evans move to logical places up or down. When Bill plays a 13th which -these days is pretty mundane - it just makes you go wow the way he adds it. He doesn't throw it away in a cluster of notes. It just sings. Rather than struck notes simultaneously. Like listen to for example Haunted Heart. Those inner 6ths sequences he plays still knock me out no matter how many times I hear it. Likewise the scale tone chord accompaniments on Spring is Here.

The value of knowing how to compose counterpoint as in imitation etc. can't hurt. It is difficult and it requires a combination of creativity and knowledge of the rules which you learn in school. You start out strict and then learn to break them a little.

[Phil in London]

For what it's worth, I can share some experience from a keyboarder's perspective, having played most of JSBs keyboard works since I was a child, and recorded some.

The key technical teaching of counterpoint (apart from the spiritual aspect) is, imho, to enable students to think in subjects, countersubjects, inversions, etc - in short: motivic elements, which are woven into independent, horizontally organised lines that converse with each other in a (vertically) logical way.

Apart from that, especially in the works of JSB, there is also a strong element of form, based on which the motivic work is brought into an overall consistent and tension building architecture, especially through the interplay of exposition, counter-exposition, episodes, and climax building strettos.

If one would like to dive into this and 'try to get it', I would start with some of the easier keyboard works, rather than the chorals (which are much more vertically organised than horizontally). For example, one could look at the 15 inventions, which were intended by JSB to be educational material for students of counterpoint.

Get the score from here: 15 Inventions, BWV 772-786 (Bach, Johann Sebastian) - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music

and listen to the music here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31r5ZgWeC0o

Then try to play the voices (each individually) yourself, maybe together with the piano in the background. Its very seductive once one begins to really appreciate the dialogue that is going on there.

In terms of books, Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum is a work which can be rather difficult to read if one has not studied other works of the era before. You may want to look at Knud Jeppensen's work on counterpoint, which explains much of the basic 'rules'. But I believe the idea of counterpoint can be much better understood when looking at concrete music at the peak of the style's development. Such, a book like Groocock's "Fugal Organisation, A Guide to the Study of Bach's 48" may be a much more practical way to see what counterpoint is all about.

I agree that in jazz, through the ability of improvising players to interact with each other 'motivically', one can occasionally find contrapuntal elements. However, personally I find the approach to say 'there is a second voice, therefore it's contrapuntal' rather a misunderstanding of what counterpoint means. But still, if one studies the baroque style and learns to think in 2, 3, or maybe even 4 or 5 voices independently, this can no doubt educate one's musical abilities and be useful also in another context.

[targuit]

Very interesting comments, Phil! No doubt your keyboard skills vastly exceed mine. But, I studied and play Bach cello suites (arranged for guitar or lute) as well as a couple of the lute suites and partitas for violin, including the Second. Are not those works examples of counterpoint as applied to string instruments? I understand your point about the strict definition of counterpoint and the interaction of independent voices. But would you consider the Chaconne by Bach an example of counterpoint or not? Of course, the original was written for solo violin, but I have seen it cited as "implied counterpoint", and of course, subsequent arrangements for guitar provide the plural voices.

Jay

[jazzmankg]

I studied strict counterpoint in college and managed to do some fugal writing. It was hard as hell and just as hard to play (at least for jazz based guy) However I do find it comes in handy. For example there is a counterpoint version of Solar that (at least in the beginning) starts with strict imitation at the 4th which I arranged on guitarist Joe Cohn's album with Doug Raney. I probably could not have done that had I not studied. This also carries over into other types of writing and arranging you do. In my book, if you have a lead line and another line grabs some attention at the same time as something to be paid attention then in essence you have counterpoint. Strict 1st species, 2nd species, free species etc methods and study aside. You can get into the whole history of it for sure.

But I think the original poster's intent was to relate all this to chord melody playing on the guitar and (perhaps) do this in a way that is mindful of chords consisting of voices that move somewhat independently rather than a chunks of notes. Generally jazz guitar players who are good with harmony often look to Bill as a model - for example Ralph Towner and Kurt Rosenwinkel. Hal was using the term counterpoint a bit loosely almost interchangeably with what he was really referring to which I think is voice leading.

[Reg]

Contrapuntal awareness helped open my eyes and ears, (my awareness), with references for performance and composition, by developing understandings of different organizational concepts to create relationships and different guide lines to help control those relationships. Which lead to being able to hear and understand melodic organization and melodic compositional techniques.

Basically I try and not voice or voice lead in the style of Palestrina of Bach, and never copy musical forms derived from melodic ideas. (the sad part is... that's almost true)

[Phil in London]

Very interesting comments, Phil! No doubt your keyboard skills vastly exceed mine. But, I studied and play Bach cello suites (arranged for guitar or lute) as well as a couple of the lute suites and partitas for violin, including the Second. Are not those works examples of counterpoint as applied to string instruments? I understand your point about the strict definition of counterpoint and the interaction of independent voices. But would you consider the Chaconne by Bach an example of counterpoint or not? Of course, the original was written for solo violin, but I have seen it cited as "implied counterpoint", and of course, subsequent arrangements for guitar provide the plural voices.

Jay

Hi, I sent you a PM. Cheers P

[vintagelove]

+4 to the Back inventions as a great place to start!!!

[Reg]

So you can learn to perform contrapuntal music, and then be taught guidelines and organization from different periods of musical development. Which generally takes about 4 years of undergrad study then a few more of grad study, and you'll have a few degrees, maybe one in composition, along with a performance degree. Then spend 4 or 5 more years actually using, teaching and beginning to understand. My point, it will take a while to develop contrapuntal skills, whether with performance and even longer for compositional usage.

This is all great and has been going on for many years, with the new addition of other people making lots of money off you going through this process.

Now after 8 to 10 years, if you still have any interest in jazz, you need to start over, only the process will be shorter, because you've developed musicianship .... Generally what happens now....is your out of money, time and energy, and you go in a different direction and if your lucky maybe try again after you develop general life skills and a means to pay for life...

Most teach and a very few get work using the skills you've developed. At this point... Most don't have jazz skills, you might understand and have the skills to compose a jazz suited or a Big Band, but what you've spent a considerable amount of time, energy, sacrifice and money on....generally doesn't work. So now you need to go through a similar process with jazz guidelines and organizational concepts.... And yes you need to learn improvisation performance.

You can study privately and speed the process up, most of these musical concepts become very simple once you understand the nuts and bolts. Most who have spent the time and energy required to perform and understand contrapuntal concepts, both with performance and composition from the classical tradition generally don't make the jazz transition, just as jazz musicians don't make transitions to classical traditions, especially with performance.

Yes there are exceptions, but they're not the norm.

As Phil posted .... Basically counterpoint is a theme or melody in a relationship with a different melody.
From that starting point... There are unlimited possibilities. Different periods of history developed different organization and basic guidelines for usage. Organization of harmony, form and structure within those aspects can be controled by contrapuntal guidelines, melodic elements and their usage. Is this incredible, beautiful, still developing and are the benefits worth your time.... I think so, will this make you able to understand, perform and compose jazz... Probably not,
definitly not, personally I see these skills generally getting in the way of jazz performance.

[targuit]

I like the Bach Inventions that Phil recommended. Surprisingly, I am not as familiar with them as the WTC and other Bach works. But they illustrate the patterns of motivic development in elementary counterpoint. I see Phil's point about the more structured use of a second voice as a vehicle for counterpoint.

It is true that, with the exception of a jazz tune purposely harmonized to simulate a Baroque style interpretation, that the addition of one or more melodic independent voices over a single note melody does not equate to counterpoint in a strict sense. But music is music, and to immerse oneself in Bach's universe improves your musicianship.

Jay