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Here is a piece I have always loved and worked on for years, beautifully executed by this excellent interpreter.
Jay
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06-27-2014 03:34 AM
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Is this your playing Jay? It's beautiful.
Originally Posted by targuit
DavidLast edited by TH; 06-27-2014 at 05:39 AM.
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No, D., the video is from the LA Academy Online Guitar. I actually don't know the name of the performer. But I think he is quite good.
JayLast edited by MarkRhodes; 06-27-2014 at 09:34 AM. Reason: OT material removed
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Reg, I see your point. And I respect it thoroughly. I've also seen some very remarkable contrapunctal skills employed in an improvisational context, more often in piano players. Not strict counterpoint where the composer has a different set of formal parameters than the traditional jazz player, but as a melodic/harmonic tool and a different way to manipulate harmonic structure. Originally Posted by Reg
Of course Bill Evans reshaped the language of improvisation, soloing and comping, Tristano too, and both were obviously indebted to Bach. In the contemporary generation of players, I've heard a very linear voice led improvisational approach coming from players like Fred Hersch, Brad Meldhau and Chris McCarthy, all piano players. I've also hear new harmonic ground broken by guitarists like Ben Monder, Mick Goodrick and Kenji Herbert.
I'll admit that this is a new area that is not the norm for what is considered the tradition of the genre, but I do believe that the study of traditional harmony, and specifically counterpoint can and will lead to things we've yet to imagine and see in the improvisational world. I do see that potential for those few that will embrace the steep learning curve.
It's not for everyone, but I'm seeing young players steeped in both genres pulling out sounds once thought impossible as once was thought of combining Debussey and Bud Powell. There seems to be a duality in jazz communities: those who work with polishing the existing artform as it exists, and those who see it as a constantly evolving aggregate of disparate elements waiting to be combined. There are tendencies towards protecting the rules of content and tendencies toward pushing the envelope. I think Jazz is about seeing the scope of the challenge and finding the tools for overcoming it.
I guess we'll see, eh?
DavidLast edited by TH; 06-28-2014 at 04:11 AM.
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I suggest getting working up some classic Ragtime pieces from notation. Pay strict attention to the timing and do not swing it! Keeping the voices independent is the hallmark of good Ragtime and a good study for getting the feel for counterpoint. Listen to Joshua Rifkin and Claude Bolling ragtime recordings for inspiration.
John Sorell
Bellevue, WA
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Counterpoint? Or, counterintuitive?
saga of harrison crabfeathers - YouTube
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I tend to agree with Reg, if one wants to become a solid jazz performer, then it will be rather a waste of time to make a deep dive into counterpoint. By comparison - If one wants to learn today's Italian, there is no need to learn the poems of Catullus in latin. Maybe a little introductory course on the latin language, to see where things are coming from, then move on to the many different dialects that make the living language to what it is nowadays.
I would, however, not make this a dogma. Some jazz styles are almost 'chamber music-type', and involve compositional techniques that are derived from contemporary Western art musics - e.g. some of what Alex Machacek is doing.
Therefore, if the target is to 'play like Benson', yes, a classical theory education will bring little and perhaps even create obstacles. However, if one wants to find his/her own style and feels attracted by both music spheres, I would see less of a risk. Music has many facets, and who knows where the journey goes.
PS: The best performers of JSBs violin concertos may have only a very limited education in counterpoint and see it as a waste of time which they need to work on their bow technique. It all depends on what one wants to achieve.
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Ciao, Phil. Tonight I am listening and playing with the WTC Book 1 on a YT channel as played on harpsichord. Very interesting to note the difference in qualities between piano, organ, and harpsichord with the same musical material. The advantage of the link here is that the music as notation is streaming, so you can play along to a degree at least with the top clef on guitar and do what you can with the bass. I'm evaluating the pieces for suitability for guitar arrangements. Not original, but apart from the Prelude no.I in C, I'm not as familiar with guitar adaptations of the other pieces in the WTC. Thus far through the Prelude and Fugue in ebmin, I find the 4th, 6th, and 8th Preludes and Fugues to be perhaps playable at first analysis on classical guitar. Parenthetically, in the past I have found a channel by a French classical guitarist who apparently has dedicated himself in part to playing the WTC on guitar. A rather amazing task, imo.
Of course, some of the pieces do not lend themselves well to adaptation, such as surprisingly the Prelude and Fugue in Emin for example, with the busy bass clef line which is hard to translate well. Nonetheless, a great exercise for the ears as well as the hands. Some of the pieces could be 'adapted' to a degree quite well, though total fidelity to the score would be challenging. At the moment I'm listening to the Prelude and Fugue in Fmin. I think the greatest challenge (relatively insurmountable for some of the pieces) is that the progressive complexity of the left hand bass clef score for the keyboardist is much harder to translate into a credible guitar arrangement. Yet the Fugue no. 16 in Gm is excellent for that purpose, imo.
As for the applicability directly to jazz - it doesn't sound a lot like the Bird to me.
However, the benefits of Bach for overall musicality is inestimable. Don't laugh, but just playing through some of the pieces like Fugue 16 in Gm takes me on a harmonic journey that is breathtakingly beautiful. One must acknowledge that while not all the WTC can be played properly on the guitar for obvious reasons, I always feel like "Johann takes me to school" harmonically in the most mind blowing way. I think that dimension to adapting some of pieces is extremely valuable. Fugue 16 in Gm might be an intriguing and doable transcription. I'll check the net for guitar transcriptions first.
In a pragmatic way, I am enjoying playing through the Prelude and Fugue no. 18 in Ab. Here playing the bass clef or the guitar clef become a fabulous exercise for the hand, though that is just a facet of the beauty of these pieces. Like a diamond.
J
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Forgot to post the link -
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Just for record... and I did try and imply, it's all... worth the time. But I am also a realist. Most who spend the time going down the traditional education, teach etc..., (of which I am a product of), don't really ever get their jazz act together, they develop musical language which somewhat covers in academia... generally not on stage and not with jazz musicians. It just generally takes... too much time and energy.
None of this is good or bad, the results are just very different.
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Jon Damian's book The Guitarist's Guide to Composing and Improvising has a very straightforward and practical approach to counterpoint. I highly recommend it.
Cheers
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Another jazz counterpoint guy is Jimmy Wyble. I really like his approach although what I've seen is a bit advanced for one just learning the concepts and rules of counterpoint. Even though I've been a classical player all my life, I find some of his material can be really hard. But well worth a look IMO.
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I have his book of 2-part improvisations. I got it, because I heard some of his etudes and loved the sound. Only learned 1 full etude (will get back there someday), but what I found beneficial was to just take a couple of measures at a time and transpose to various keys. It helped me see some of his devices that were really easy to grasp, like breaking chords up. Thx for the reminder about his book!!! Originally Posted by Scot Tremblay
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I feel like there's some terminology confusion going on in this thread. maybe it's best to speak of two different kinds of "counterpoint."
there's "counterpoint" with a lower-case 'c.' this is the use of two or more independent voices, without concerning yourself with too many formal rules. lots of different resources here, many of which have already been named in the thread: Jon Damian, Steve Herberman, Jimmy Wyble, Mick Goodrick, etc.
I would take a very open approach to this kind of study. investigate a variety of resources, experiment, keep a notebook of ideas. a lot of this study will be focused on developing the physical technique to play these ideas fluently, and should be a challenge to both the right and left hand.
then there's "Counterpoint" with a capital 'C.' this is the formal study of counterpoint taught in most conservatories, as passed down by Fux, using the likes of Palestrina and Bach as our models. think species counterpoint, think invertible counterpoint, canons, inventions, fugues, etc.
I agree with Reg that Counterpoint, while certainly not hurtful, is probably not a priority for an improvising jazz musician with limited study time. almost all the resources are geared towards either composition or keyboard. the only text that I know of for guitar is Dusan Bogdanovic's excellent but difficult to find "Counterpoint for Guitar."
the study of music is so vast that the student has no choice but to pick and choose. it's pretty tough to be the world's greatest bebop guitarist, tabla player, and composers of fugues at the same. but if you're seriously interested in composition, studying some formal Counterpoint can be a boon.
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Hi guys!
I think that one important thing to learn about counterpoint it's to think in various lines at the same time.
We have too, a technique called Poliphonic Melody, that is, one line playing melodicaly several "voices", and
that's very hard to master but is very useful in improvisation, regardless of the syle you are playing.
I'm jazz guitarrist but actually I'm studing classical composition/conduction in the college,
I think that all you learn, just improves your musical understanding and open your mind. Music is not just Jazz, there's a world out there waiting to be discovered by us.
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Beautiful piece, Paul! Love the way you expanded your motif, and your use of the relative minor. It felt Baroque yet modern. Lovely work with marvelous thematic and harmonic development. And I agree with your comments about the horizons beyond jazz.
Jay
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thanks man!!
About the dificulty, is really simple, you have two qualities, combining 2 notes, consonant or dissonant.
When you're working with more than two voices, you must pay atention at the relationship between the upper voices with the bass. That's some different than "stacking notes" because we are treating with several independent melodies. We construct melodies, wich notes are almost all the time in a consonant relationship...
I've studied with the Fux book, is very simple and very useful.
The Schoenberg's book of counterpoint is more specific, and complete.
Analysis of the literature, mainly JSB is the MOST IMPORTANT, play some pieces, on the piano, or on the guitar is VITAL for understand this technique... but beyond the technique exists the spirit that generates the human creation, and you only understand this, playing and establishing a real conection with the music... beyond the analysis and beyond the technique.Last edited by Paul-Wegmann; 07-05-2014 at 08:53 AM.
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Counterpoint in general is a polyphonic technique. It concerns not only melodies or lines, but also chord change can be a counterpoint - the main idea is that a part - be it melody or chord or rythm - is understood in piece as a more or less individual - not just supportive background.
And the polyphonic techiques depends much on musical style concept.... counterpoint in early music is based one thing, in functional tonality on the other, in jazz on another...
They may overlap but basic rules of leading counterpoints differ.
In early music where modality ruled - there are certain motivic, rythmic, interval relations that should be considered.
In Bach's polyphony and later classics counterpoint mostly depends on harmony, so you'b better to start from 4-voices leads in functional harmony - cadences, then modulations. The polyphonic tools like imitations etc. can be learnt later becasue they make sence only if you relate them to the harmony lead. Usually this style is meant under word 'counterpoint' as a school subjext. It is not really difficult, if you have a good teacher... dificult is to use it not mecanically, but with meaning.
In jazz it is more or less free - it can be partly this, partly that.. in dixiland they play spontaneous imitative counterpoints all together... it is harmonic, but more free in voicing... but counterpoint here is just a kind of embelishment. And in later jazz styles like Jim Hall, or Jimmy Giuffrey or Mulligan it can be more conceptual... but based on various concepts.
much depends on style of the song, on its means expressivness...
But jazz - wise - I am not sure that classical countepoints are needed... they will help just by developing ear in a concept they are used..
And playing jazz fugues? I never understood this... it is not taht difficult but I think that involves in a different world - huge, interesting - but not jazz...Last edited by Jonah; 07-07-2014 at 05:13 AM.
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I'm keen on studying counterpoint and proper 4 part harmony at some point as most of my harmonic knowledge is in terms of root progressions rather than proper voice leading. Although, I've concluded the first step is to study some classical piano until I get to the point I could comfortable work through a Bach choral or fugue on the instrument fairly quickly and study the rules in terms of experimenting on the instrument.
Piano seems so much more suited to this than guitar that I actually think its a better direction to learn the instrument than try to go through this process on a guitar.
An interesting listening exercise based on a Bach fugue is at:
They have a graphical notation of the fugue and listening exercises in the description to help you hear all the themes occurring in the different parts.
ps. I've tried to link to the actual video where they have the listening exercises in the description but the forum is automatically embedding the video.
Its title on youtube is:
Bach, Art of Fugue, Contrapunctus 3, BWV 1080
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Okay. Here is Sid Jacobs creating counterpoint the easy way. Some gold attached.
Last edited by srlank; 08-16-2014 at 11:44 AM.
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Sid's an amazing player. Seems like a good guy, and he's got a nice dry sense of humor. Now about those stretchy chords..... Originally Posted by srlank
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
LOL.
I found very funny re: typical guitarist chord melody:
"Darn that dream, dream. Very bad." Wish I coul imitate the inflection of his voice over the Internet written forum.
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I'd be careful not to get too hung up on counterpoint. Of the 3 types of motion in counterpoint- parallel, contrary and oblique, the one we don't do instinctively as guitarists is contrary motion. Benson does a lot of oblique motion very effectively. We are doing a lot of parallel motion all the time doing chord melody.
In classical music there are fairly strict rules in counterpoint. In jazz I'd say the rules don't extent beyond the 3 types of motion.
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or if one desires to hear a more modern use of counterpoint in a jazz player, listen to some Keith Jarrett solo recordings....you'll find a very common use of counterpoint.
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Learning 'counter-point' is a great introduction to the concept of multi-voiced music. But it really only teaches you to write in the baroque counterpoint style.
Multi-Voiced music is a general approach to music that by it's very lack of definition allows for lots of different possibilities.
The only rule that I can think of is that whichever is the most active voice rhythmically is the one that stands out to the listener as the melody at that moment (It's what attracts the listeners attention). Even if it's a percussion line.
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