Tri-tone subs question

[edh]

are dominant chords the only chords that can be substituted using the tritone principal.

Minor chords cannot be substituted using the tritone principal?

thanks in advance for your replys.

[pantz]

in a ii V the minor chord can be subbed with a minor built off the tritone of the ii. I'm not sure about other situations. Try it out.

[circle110]

Like pantz says.

A tritone sub of ii-V-I is bvi-bII-I -- like the final chords in the A section of Satin Doll.

To get the precise effect of a tritone sub, both chords (the original chord and its sub) need a... tritone! In fact, they need to have the very same tritone. So, dominants fit the bill and minors don't. But like pantz says, you can precede that dominant with its ii.

However, I love to extrapolate ideas and using a minor in place of a dominant could be seen as a sort of extrapolation of the tritone sub idea. I'll bet that if you keep exploring, you'll find ways to use it.

Matter of fact, I kind of like the sound of say, Bb-7 to A-7 in place of E7alt to A-7. It's not the same effect as the standard tritone sub of Bb7 - A-7 but I like it just the same. The added half step movement of Db to C is nice. The bii7 creates less tension than bII7 if that is what you are wanting.

Hmmm, I just tried the bii min(Maj7) - i min(add9) below and I LIKE IT!
The upwards chromatic movement on the D string is a nice counterbalance to the downward parallel movement of all the other voices:

x- -x
6- -5
6- -5
7-8-9
x- -x
6- -5


At the risk of sounding like Yoda, there is no "cannot" in music.

[ohlcv]

Like pantz says.
At the risk of sounding like Yoda, there is no "cannot" in music.

In music, "cannot" there is not.

[Reg]

Like with most theoretical concepts... there are many levels of application.

The first of tritone subs is as was mentioned above... traditional inverting of the actual tritone which results in a new Dom 7th chord, which happens to also be a tritone away with root motion...G7 becoming Db7.

This principle of root motion tritone sub usage is also very common.... use of any type of chords. There are always many other organizing principles in use when performing jazz... which results in a balance of whats being used and heard.

This concept of what's correct or incorrect can be as simple as what you like... determined simply buy your ears. But generally there are organizational concepts being employed. Just because one doesn't hear something... doesn't mean it's not going on....or not heard by others. The more complex concepts become... sometimes it takes awhile to develop your ears to be able to hear.

Personally... I hear and think, Reference, Relationship(s), developments.

The point about "cannot" generally then develops reference to Common practice.

[JonR]

are dominant chords the only chords that can be substituted using the tritone principal.

Simple answer is yes, because the principle is based on the chord's internal tritone between 3rd and 7th (as Reg says), as well as the root change. The 3rd and 7th just flip, enharmonically.
Eg, G7's tritone is B-F; in Db7 that becomes Cb-F.
IOW, a "tritone substitute" is defined that way.

That doesn't mean you can't substitute any other chord type with the same type rooted a tritone away - it just won't work the same way. (It might still work, but in a different way.)

I.e., the tritone sub works because of the specific voice-leading of a dom7 chord.

Of course, jazz V7s are usually preceded with their ii chords, so it then looks like the min7 is a tritone sub too, but really it isn't.
Eg, when Dm7-G7 is replaced with Abm7-Db7, the Abm7 is not really a tritone sub of Dm7 (strictly speaking). It's the dom7s that are determining the situation. The min7s just tag along.
If you compare Dm7 and Abm7, they don't share any notes:
Dm7 = D F A C
Abm7 = Ab Cb Eb Gb
Chords that share no notes can't possibly be substitutes for each other - not functionally anyway.
As I said above, it doesn't mean such a switch can't be used; it would just work in a different way from a true substitute. There would be a different kind of voice-leading - which might work as well (or better) but just differently.

Eg, Am-Abm7-G7 works (kind of) - but very differently from Am-Dm7-G7; and also different from Am7-D7-G7 or Am7-Ab7-G7, which are subs for each other (Ab7 being tritone sub for D7, sharing its crucial tritone).

IOW, there are many possibilities (nothing that "can't" be done), it's just a question of what sound you want, and then what names we give the various choices. IMO, to say tritone subs are "dom7s only" helps to distinguish them from other effects.

[christianm77]

Well I like to tritone sub minor chords - but that's normally for an 'outside' sound.

I dunno though - if you come up with something you like the sound of then do it.

Depends on context really - is the group playing the melody, and if so does it fit? I someone else soloing? Are you soloing? If you play with another chordal instrument (esp. one who shall we say - is somewhat chord/scale oriented rather than listening :-P) it may clash - there's a reason why piano players like trios so much haha....

[edh]

Thanks all for your replys. Very helpful.

[eh6794]

Joe Pass has 3 HotLicks videos on YouTube. In one of the videos, hes talks about the subs he uses in the 6251.

He subs Em for where the Cmaj should be. Em, Am, Dm, G7. Then from there he goes to E7, A7, D7, G7 (notice how, when you play a, for example, an E7(#9), the #9 is the minor 3rd!!!).

Then he uses the tritone subs for any of the minors he turned into dominants. He uses chromatic voicing: Ex Bb13, A13, D7 (#9), G13 (or any other variation). See how he turned a Cmaj into a Bb13? WTF. Also notice how the chord shape stays the same down the neck. He will play lines/solos off these subs too!

Watch his videos, youll learn a lot.

[JonR]

See how he turned a Cmaj into a Bb13? WTF.

Cmaj7 less root = Em > E7 = V/vi > Bb7 = subV/vi.

Neat but, by that point, Bb7 is no longer a "sub" for Cmaj (not enough in common, and three notes - Bb-F-Ab - in direct contrast). It derives from what follows, leading to Am (or A7).

[docbop]

What I was taught a long time ago was to take series of chords up a tritone. Now depending on root movement or sound you might want to leave last chord of series along so you can resolve back to original progression.

Key to things like this is the ear recognizes and accepts the symmetry way before the brain catches on. That's why things parallel, symmetric harmony, and octave displacement work.

[Reg]

Actually that's pretty old school use of subs... what he didn't bring into the explanation was how Blue note harmony also can influence use of subs.

Anyway that a fairly typical second or third level sub... Jon don't get so hung up on the note relationships, their obviously there but there are other methods of organizing relationships.

Once you get to the dominant door... the blue note door is always open with jazz. That reference is always present... even if you don't hear or refuse to hear.

Jon's very much into voice leading and organization based on that organizing concept... which take a ton of knowledge and skill to understand. But that is not the method used.

So the OP's reference line of relationship was Cmaj becomes E-7, diatonic sub for Cmaj.
Modal interchange usage and all chords become Dominant chords. (details if your interested)
(this could also be accomplished with Blue note usage)
last step was Tritone sub... Bb7 for E7

There are other organizational methods of having Bb7 sub for Cmaj7... but the references and relationships would be different

[eh6794]

I wish Joe Pass was still around so we could tell him that. Lol

[JonR]

Jon don't get so hung up on the note relationships, their obviously there but there are other methods of organizing relationships.

Well, I'm only being a little anal about the concept of a "substitute" .
The term only makes sense to me if the new chord has some functional resemblance to the old one.
If Bb13 is replacing Cmaj7, then something else is going on (as indeed it is); Bb13 is not a tonic substitute. I'm quite comfortable about the process (in the context), I just think that particular change needs another name.

In any case (staying in pedantic mode), "note relationships" are what this is all about, yes? What other kinds of relationships are we talking about?

Once you get to the dominant door... the blue note door is always open with jazz. That reference is always present... even if you don't hear or refuse to hear.

Can you explain this a little more?

Jon's very much into voice leading and organization based on that organizing concept... which take a ton of knowledge and skill to understand. But that is not the method used.

In this case, though, seems to me that's precisely what's being used. The whole process is about secondary dominants. No blue note concept seems relevant (on the face of it) - but perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

So the OP's reference line of relationship was Cmaj becomes E-7, diatonic sub for Cmaj.
Modal interchange usage and all chords become Dominant chords. (details if your interested)

I see them all as secondary dominants (due to root movement). That seems a simpler and more obvious interpretation than modal interchange. E7 is V/vi; etc.

(this could also be accomplished with Blue note usage)

Well that's what's intriguing me...

There are other organizational methods of having Bb7 sub for Cmaj7... but the references and relationships would be different

Examples?

[Reg]

Hey Jon... you do have a lot of questions... I find it interesting that I'm one of the only members that generally offers theoretical and harmonic explanations... which actually deal with the subject this forum is about... and then generally most want answers that use the musical language and definitions they understand to explain concepts they don't understand.

My point about the notes is... it's not just the notes notated or played at any given moment. There are always implied references which have all the notes you want. Yes harmony is about relationships between notes etc... but with jazz not all the notes are played all the time.

It's very common for chord progressions to have multiple contexts where one chord can have different Functions going on at the same time... There can be the basic key area of the tune, multiple targets where the function of a chord has choices. So the relationships can change or even have multiple references going on simultaneously'

Does this make any since?

Do you really want me to go into an explanation of using blue notes functionally organized, as compared to embellishments...which is what I mean when I say the Blue note door. Generally access to Blue notes is through Dominant chords. If you only want to use secondary or extended dominants functionally and call everything else embellishments...

What would it take to make anything I said have any validity...would the concept need to correspond accurately with CCP real (old) world belief. I'm just curious... I believe the first time I referenced Maj/Min functional Harmony... you were not aware of the term. I lived in academia... it's really difficult to hear and perform Jazz from that perspective... sorry

With regards to modal interchange, have you ever gone through the exercise of creating possible analysis for a chord resolving or going to any other chord. C to Db, C to D, C to Eb etc... and then all chord types. Rather than me tell you how Modal interchange works, maybe try this little exercise and see what you come up with... or not.

Do you understand pedals and how they can effect harmony.

Sorry Jon... I'm a little fried and have to head to gig. I'll try and give better explanations later.

[edh]

@Reg, could you explain what a blue note is? Would you give an example of a blue note please?

thanks edh

[bako]

A chord substitution:

A. has the ability to harmonize the same or similar melodic content as the reference chord(s)
B. provides a path to the same harmonic destination, short term or long view

There is pretty clear logic in the evolution of C > Em > E7 > Bb7 and it can fulfill the two criteria mentioned above.
What is more important than whether you accept a Bb chord as a formal sub for C is whether the sound holds any interest to you, is it something you can imagine yourself using for whatever moral or devious purpose you dream up.

[randalljazz]

obliquely...peter de rose, in his delightful on a little street in singapore, alternates C and Bb triads, two chords per measure, for four measures, with a C pedal (bass) and long held note in the melody (C, and then G), and then repeats the device up a fifth in the second half of the eight-bar phrase. typical AABA' form, the device is the majority of the song. the tonic version is also used as two measures of fill between the verse and the chorus...

[Vladan]

Re Joe Pass, I think I remember that clip. For what it's worth, my memory, he said it was modal interchange, although he said it in not so scholar language. Something to the lines of, if I have E chord, I can change it to whatever as long as it is E. Sort of, change pop diatonic to what you can play bop lines over, than add the blues. At least, that's what I wanted to hear.

[JonR]

Sorry Jon... I'm a little fried and have to head to gig. I'll try and give better explanations later.

Thanks Reg, I'll look forward to it. I understand most of what you're saying, it's the bit about "using blue notes functionally organized" that intrigued me.

[JonR]

A chord substitution:

A. has the ability to harmonize the same or similar melodic content as the reference chord(s)
B. provides a path to the same harmonic destination, short term or long view

Right.
For me, it's that "short term or long view" that strikes me. I'm used to seeing function relative to key, of course (long view), but in terms of substitution I tend to think about the next chord, and the voice-leading.
At least that's how I hear things working most of the time; the most obvious connection. Only if there was no obvious connection between neighbouring chords would I look for some kind of delayed resolution, a more distant destination.
(I'm disregarding modal chords.)

There is pretty clear logic in the evolution of C > Em > E7 > Bb7 and it can fulfill the two criteria mentioned above.

Suppose the melodic content (on the C) contains a significant A natural? (I can see that any other single note of the scale - even including a B - could be supported by Bb7, but I can also imagine a few melodic phrases which would be difficut to accommodate.)

What is more important than whether you accept a Bb chord as a formal sub for C is whether the sound holds any interest to you, is it something you can imagine yourself using for whatever moral or devious purpose you dream up.

Yes, but in some of those cases I wouldn't be calling it a "sub" - if it doesn't fulfil both those criteria.
(Maybe that's just me being over-sensitive about terminology )

[JonR]

Re Joe Pass, I think I remember that clip. For what it's worth, my memory, he said it was modal interchange, although he said it in not so scholar language. Something to the lines of, if I have E chord, I can change it to whatever as long as it is E

Or Bb?

Sort of, change pop diatonic to what you can play bop lines over, than add the blues.

That sounds like a nicely succinct summary of it!

[eh6794]

Vladan, Youre probably right.

I believe the video was Joe Pass Solo Guitar. He may have called it modal interchange, but since it was a segment on substitutions, I considered it a sub. Ill have to watch it again to see what he said.... BUT Joe played AMAZING. ... he wasn't a theorist! I like how he counts the frets to decide if tge chords a 1 6 2 or 5. So even if he did call it a substitution, it may have been modal interchange or vice versa.

I just think this thread is funny. I fiery debate about whether Bb should be called a substitution!!

I just play what sounds cool, you guys can decide what terminology I should use!

[bako]

Suppose the melodic content (on the C) contains a significant A natural?

There is a way to harmonize any note with any root note.
I am too conservative to harmonize "A" with Bb7 but making it Bb major something gets the job done.

Diatonic version

Cma7 Am7 | Dm9 G13 | Cma6/9

X E X C G B ----- X X G C E A ----- X X F C E A ------ X X F B E G ----- X X E A D G

With some subs

Bbma9 Eb9#11 | Dm9 G7+ | Cma6/9

X X Bb C F A ----- X Eb X Db F A ----- X X F C E G ----- X X F B Eb G ----- X X E A D G

[JonR]

I fiery debate about whether Bb should be called a substitution!!

No fire here.
The point about terminology (agreement on conventions) is it saves time and space if we all know what we're talking about.