Question about scale notation...

[shreddingjoris]

Hello,

When noting a major scale like (for example) F#, is it ok to say/type this... F# G# A# B C# D# F ?
I heard u can't have F and F# in one scale notation or something... Is this true?
In that case it's F# G# A# B C# D# E# i guess? But then again, what does it matter? E# is F anyway...

Thanks!

[mr. beaumont]

You want one of each letter, if possible. Follow the key signature.

Think about writing out a melody that used a bunch of F#'s and F's.

[henryrobinett]

You can write it in Gb.

[shreddingjoris]

Gb would be: Gb Ab Bb B Db Eb F, so there would be two B's in there, so that's not right, right?

[dingusmingus]

Yes, sadly the B is called Cb in the key of Gb. This is why folks often try not to write in F# and Gb.

[shreddingjoris]

I never knew there where rules like this... I always assumed u can call a note C# or Db whatever u prefer in a scale.

[henryrobinett]

Weirdly I've written a lot of songs in Gb. I don't do it in F#. I'm not sure why. Influenced by horn players proclivity for flat keys probably. I write where I hear it and don't transpose it to make it easier.

[henryrobinett]

I never knew there where rules like this... I always assumed u can call a note C# or Db whatever u prefer in a scale.

Nope. It's confusing. There are times in flat keys where # is appropriate, but don't be willy-nilly about it. That why there are key signatures. Gb has flat notes. Cb is enharmonically the same sounding pitch as B, but they're different notes. And some good readers will get confused and even angry if you make them jump through these mental hoops. They've got the keys dialed. Mixing sharps and flats, incorrectly, makes a readers mind spin.

[shreddingjoris]

That is confusing... So, just to set the record straight... can someone type (or copy) the correct order of all the 12 major scales?

[dingusmingus]

No, do it yourself! (Really, it's helpful.)

Just apply the formula
R
whole step
2
whole step
3
half step
4
whole step
5
whole step
6
whole step
7
half step
8

Then check out some charts about the circle of fifths, you'll see how you add or subtract one flat or sharp as you move around.

[bako]

Flat Keys

C D E F G A B C

F G A Bb C D E F

Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db

Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb

Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb


Sharp Keys

C D E F G A B C

G A B C D E F# G

D E F# G A B C# D

A B C# D E F# G# A

E F# G# A B C# D# E

B C# D# E F# G# A# B

F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

[Phil in London]

Hello,

When noting a major scale like (for example) F#, is it ok to say/type this... F# G# A# B C# D# F ?
I heard u can't have F and F# in one scale notation or something... Is this true?
In that case it's F# G# A# B C# D# E# i guess? But then again, what does it matter? E# is F anyway...

Thanks!

I guess it all depends... if you just want to indicate which tone to play - yes, E# = F. But if you want to express what happens harmonically in a meaningful way, it might not cut it. Example: V of F#maj is C# major. The C# maj triad consists of C# E# G#, one half tone higher than C E G. Quite clearly, C# F G# would look rather odd and be misleading.

[RyanM]

Gb to Cb is a perfect fourth. Gb to B is an augmnted third!

G A B C... G to C is four letters, so some kind of G to some kind of C is always some kind of fourth.


This is how musical spelling works.

[fep]

In jazz there are so many places where the chords (and their spellings) are outside of the tunes key signature.

For example given key signature of G major, and if you have an Ab7b5 with a line with that has an F#; then I believe you should notate the note as a Gb not an F#. In this case I'm giving priority of the Ab7b5 chord scale over the key signature of G major. When I'm reading, I'm aware of the chord of the moment, I find this awareness makes it easier for me to read and easier to 'hear' the line.

Further if you have have a G blues scale over a G chord with a key signature of G major (one sharp), I'm going to spell the blues scale G Bb C Db D F. That is Db, not C# and F, not E#, and Bb, not A#.

I believe notating in a way that makes it easiest to read and understand trumps all other notation rules. This even holds to picking the key signature which doesn't always have to line up with the tonal center (like the key signature of no sharps or flats for a G blues).

I'm curious if others see it this way. ?

[monk]

I never knew there where rules like this... I always assumed u can call a note C# or Db whatever u prefer in a scale.

In the case of the major and minor (natural, harmonic and melodic) scales, each letter name is only used one time in the scale. If it becomes necessary to sharp a B or an E or flat a C or an F, then you do so to preserve the protocol, That's common practice and has been for hundreds of years.

You didn't say how long you've been playing or how you learned but, yes, there are rules like this and many more. This is first year theory stuff so if you haven't done so, this would be a good time to look into theory a bit deeper.

For Octatonic scales like the Diminished, the rule doesn't hold because there are eight notes and only seven letters so there will be a repeated letter in the scale.

[shreddingjoris]

Flat Keys

C D E F G A B C

F G A Bb C D E F

Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

Ab Bb C Db F G Ab

Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db

Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb

Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb


Sharp Keys

C D E F G A B C

G A B C D E F# G

D E F# G A B C# D

A B C# D E F# G# A

E F# G# A B C# D# E

B C# D# E F# G# A# B

F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

Thanks, but shouldn't the Ab scale be Ab Bb C Db Eb F G and not Ab Bb C Db F G Ab?

[shreddingjoris]

Gb to Cb is a perfect fourth. Gb to B is an augmnted third!

G A B C... G to C is four letters, so some kind of G to some kind of C is always some kind of fourth.


This is how musical spelling works.

How is that possible? They are the same note?

[shreddingjoris]

In the case of the major and minor (natural, harmonic and melodic) scales, each letter name is only used one time in the scale. If it becomes necessary to sharp a B or an E or flat a C or an F, then you do so to preserve the protocol, That's common practice and has been for hundreds of years.

You didn't say how long you've been playing or how you learned but, yes, there are rules like this and many more. This is first year theory stuff so if you haven't done so, this would be a good time to look into theory a bit deeper.

For Octatonic scales like the Diminished, the rule doesn't hold because there are eight notes and only seven letters so there will be a repeated letter in the scale.

I'm learning true the internet, but will be going to jazzschool this year. I always assumed it didn't matter how u describe a note, guess i was wrong.

[henryrobinett]

How is that possible? They are the same note?

Hm. That's not correct. They are not the same note. They're the same pitch, not the same note. Terminology is very important.

[TH]

There are times that I'm writing an arrangement, particularly for a part where, due to transposition for an instrument (writing out a part for an alto player) and there'd be an awkward spelling in a passage, and I'd opt to use an enharmonic spelling that avoids an awkward notation. Though this isn't common, it's forgiven by players as a reading aid. Just confusing the issue...!

Hey. This is guitar we're talking here. Nobody knows how to play in friggin F# or Gb. That's why they made the term: "In C. Capo on 6"

David

[TH]

Hm. That's not correct. They are not the same note. They're the same pitch, not the same note. Terminology is very important.

Exact Armondo. In using notation, one of the things where it differs from TAB, is it gives more vital information. As a jazz player, we're aware of the function of each note in a scale, and we even number the notes accordingly, assigning a number for each scale step. Having a distinct letter assigned to each note really helps to identify the functional identity of a note, though there may be a bunch of accidentals preceding it. You still look at it and know that if it's in the key signature, it's a certain interval away depending on how many lines or spaces.

I think it's harder if you come from a TAB orientation, or non reading in general, to deal with the apparent inconvenience of the appearance of accidentals, but it speaks to the priority of function (rather than where to place your finger like in TAB), and not necessarily the convenience of the reader/player. Well, that's the way I read it...

David

[Jonah]

Hey,

it depends on music.
It is for tonality that matters... especially when there are modilations and key changes not to get confused by wrong writing. In modulation process there is always point when the chord is undetermined it still belongs to one key but already can be considered as belonging to another... so it is relative.

You have chords build of thirds in tonal music, they all contain thirds.
Are you able to build any chord of thirds in F# key containing F note?
Take F#7: F# - A# (third), A#-C# (third), C# - F? - no because it is 4th (c-d-e-f), it should be C#-E#.


It comes originally from non-equal temperation when e.g. Gb and F# are not actually the same pitch...


But if music is not connected with functional tomality it does not matter much how you put it.

Also in pop and jazz for convinience or writing they may ignore this also and also because many songs are played in one key and it does not really matter much how you put it, of they have lots of paralel chromatic chords etc. and it is not necessary and complicated to write them down strictly to their understanding in tonal music.

But actually if you start to learn theory it is better at least to keep in mind and understand why and how it works...

Just remember it should always be what you hear, not what the book says.
It is E# because E# is 3rd step of dominant chord resolving to tonic chord 1st tone F#, and F cannot resolve to F#, only to E, because if you have F you have other tonal context, F might be 7th of the dominant chord in C.
This is the point to hear it in the context, because just separately it is hard to feel.

[shreddingjoris]

Hey,

it depends on music.
It is for tonality that matters... especially when there are modilations and key changes not to get confused by wrong writing. In modulation process there is always point when the chord is undetermined it still belongs to one key but already can be considered as belonging to another... so it is relative.

You have chords build of thirds in tonal music, they all contain thirds.
Are you able to build any chord of thirds in F# key containing F note?
Take F#7: F# - A# (third), A#-C# (third), C# - F? - no because it is 4th (c-d-e-f), it should be C#-E#.


It comes originally from non-equal temperation when e.g. Gb and F# are not actually the same pitch...


But if music is not connected with functional tomality it does not matter much how you put it.

Also in pop and jazz for convinience or writing they may ignore this also and also because many songs are played in one key and it does not really matter much how you put it, of they have lots of paralel chromatic chords etc. and it is not necessary and complicated to write them down strictly to their understanding in tonal music.

But actually if you start to learn theory it is better at least to keep in mind and understand why and how it works...

Just remember it should always be what you hear, not what the book says.
It is E# because E# is 3rd step of dominant chord resolving to tonic chord 1st tone F#, and F cannot resolve to F#, only to E, because if you have F you have other tonal context, F might be 7th of the dominant chord in C.
This is the point to hear it in the context, because just separately it is hard to feel.

So, i should just see that every note from every defined scale has a permanent note-name, so u don't get confused when changing a key? Like when u read the triad F# A# C#, from C# to F would be confusing, because it is implimented in your brain as it doesn't belong to the scale u memorised (the F# major key)?

[bako]

Thanks, but shouldn't the Ab scale be Ab Bb C Db Eb F G and not Ab Bb C Db F G Ab?

Yes, I accidentally omitted Eb on the Ab scale. I corrected that. Thanks.

[Jonah]

So, i should just see that every note from every defined scale has a permanent note-name, so u don't get confused when changing a key? Like when u read the triad F# A# C#, from C# to F would be confusing, because it is implimented in your brain as it doesn't belong to the scale u memorised (the F# major key)?

Yes. In C it would look like C-E-G-Cb - it looks really weird...
ither like a mistake or like a concept of complex key change (though in this case really complex)))).

But I think the problem you have might be partly that you are somewhat confused with lots of occasional in the key of F#. Am I right?


You transpose scale - F# major is the same as C major just 6 half-steps higher, if you look from this point of view you will mechanically put E# not F.
You may ask: why? In C major I put B with no shraps and here I have to put E#?
Because the root F# is altered itself
This is because C major is initial - all the other scales are like trasposition of it, so we operate with notes of C-major just altering those that do not fit new scales.

It maybe more clear if you look at this not like notes but like seven steps, there are always 7 steps in such a scale and they should be on the different notes with different names (derived from C major names), becasue if you put С and Cb (instead of B) it looks like 6 steps and in addition one of them altered.


I would say also that this training is better on keyboard, it is more evident on it.. and with T-S-D chords behind it to hear resolutions.

PS
This is mostly for major/minor scales only