altered chord resolutions - levine

[wiscart1900]

in the jazz theory book by mark levine he discusses resolutions of both V7 alt chords and V7#11 chords

V7 alt chord resolutions:
1)down a 5th
2) up a half step
3) down a major 3rd

V7#11 resolutions
1) down a half step
2) down a 4th
3) up a whole step



1) makes sense (typical ii - V resolutoin or tritone sub)
2) makes sense (lydian dominant resolution for V7 #11 and its tritone sub)

3) could somebody help with the explinatino of #3.
V7 alt resolving down a major 3rd or V7#11 resolving up a whole step

thanks

[M-ster]

dom7(#11) up a whole step: Bb7(#11) -> Cmaj7

dom7(alt) down a major 3rd: E7(alt) -> Cmaj7

These are tritone substitutions for each other, and both are just using the iv-6 to Imaj sound. F mel minor to C major, in the examples.

[JonR]

Yes, the minor plagal cadence (iv-I) is behind both the lydian dominant bVII and its tritone sub.
Eg, F-Fm-C is a common traditional sequence, and Bb7#11 simply puts a Bb bass under the Fm (as well as adding 6 and maj7 to the Fm).
And of course they're also closely related to the cadence to the relative minor: Bb7#11 or E7alt > C or Am.

The odd - and unusual one - is the 7alt resolving up a half-step. This is the rarest. As tritone sub for IV7, it has a kind of blues sound to me. Very nice, but I can't think of any examples in standard tunes: anyone?

[M-ster]

... The odd - and unusual one - is the 7alt resolving up a half-step. This is the rarest. As tritone sub for IV7, it has a kind of blues sound to me. Very nice, but I can't think of any examples in standard tunes: anyone?

Someday My Prince Will Come - ?

Bbmaj7 | D7alt | Ebmaj7 | Db7(#11) ...

[JensL]

The odd - and unusual one - is the 7alt resolving up a half-step. This is the rarest. As tritone sub for IV7, it has a kind of blues sound to me. Very nice, but I can't think of any examples in standard tunes: anyone?

I think the VII7(b9) - I'd describe it as a reharmonization of a #IVdim - I progression (But maybe that's just me.. )

You have that in "I Remember You", "You Do Something To Me", "You'd Be So Nice to Come Home To" and "Spring is Here". In some harmonizations they are dim chords and in some they are a IIø7 V7(b9)

Jens

[Reg]

So if a cadence is simply an effective way of establishing a tonality or modality. Which can be a conclusion to a phrase, a harmonic progression even just dissonance resolution, (once the establishment of what is dissonance and consonance).
What are the details of the cadence, the formula of which the organization is based, not the voice leading which is an after thought to realize the organization. What's the motor of function.

Classical harmony defines cadence as...authentic or dominant cadence and plagal or subdominant cadence and some mixed versions etc... Throw in some deceptive versions and you can cover most music.

If we choose to have dissonance chords as our tonic, does the cadence change. Is the formula or organization just based on common practice... what we've been told and have taught.

I'm just BSing and trying to make us, Me think... not be told. Have you played tunes like Vincents Herring's, "Don't Let It Go"... simple tune, not complicated... but uses different organization of cadence to establish tonality or modality. Or you could just call Eb I and Db bVII and the solo section a modulation to relative Min... deceptively...or any other label you choose depending on your reference.
But when I play the tune I generally play both tonally and modally with targets.

There are always many choices as to the relationship of cadences... it's just a numbers game with not that many numbers.

Go through the process of resolving a Dominant chord to all possible 12 root choices, then start again with different harmonic choices for each root, I know it's somewhat a kids game, but most haven't gone through the process. It's usually more usefull to figure out, see and hear possibilities yourself than be told.

[JonR]

Someday My Prince Will Come - ?

Bbmaj7 | D7alt | Ebmaj7 | Db7(#11) ...

Thanks, that'll do nicely.
The Ebmaj7-Gm connection has only just occurred to me ..

[JonR]

I think the VII7(b9) - I'd describe it as a reharmonization of a #IVdim - I progression (But maybe that's just me.. )

I was thinking something very similar.
#IVdim-I is basically a common-tone diminished move, and the VII7b9 just adds the (major)VII degree as a root.

[Reg]

Hey Wiscart...

V7 down a 5th... standard V I dominant cadence... doesn't matter what the V7 or I chord is. All are accessible... some require more setting up. There are different references to use to create different tonal settings.

V7 up a 1/2 step... usually also very diatonic tonal harmony, the target is commonly called a Diatonic sub. Deceptive resolution...

example G7alt going to Abma7... the Abmaj7 is a diatonic sub for the above G7alt going to C-7. Technically C-7 would be natural Min and Abmaj7 would be lydian, the model reference is simply to verbally describe the complete note collections.

V7 up a maj3rd.... same thing only Ebmaj7 being the relative Maj of target C-7.
So G7alt going to Ebmaj7

With extended use of the same type of relationship... diatonic subs for targets, and using Modal interchange, the next level of standard borrowing chord as in Relative maj and min. Anyway you can come up with many of jazz standard chord patterns with simple modal interchange using diatonic Subs,

This approach to analysis is pretty basic and usually used as a starting reference for creating more interesting progressions or source for creating relationships when developing solos..

And yes you can create relationships... analysis for chord patterns using Tritone subs, ( or root based tritone subs)

It's all somewhat just a numbers game after the fact... with enough harmonic and theoretical knowledge you can BS your way through almost any analysis. With out a "context"... the actual performance, not just a simple lead sheet, like I said the possibilities of analysis... explaining why and how chords move are endless.

When you perform... you make choices of how you want to approach... and the analysis comes after the fact. But many players are aware of common practice jazz chord patterns with somewhat plug and play application. Your already aware of the functional analysis before and as you play. Just like you hear V I relationships, you begin to be able to hear and use chord patterns with same type of function....

Example... I VI II V can have function as a method of implying your target, or your tonic... like a simple I chord... or can be used as a method of implying dominant type of function, the I VI II V can function as one chord... implying a type of cadence to establish your tonal center.

Like I said you want to start understanding jazz harmony... go through the possibilities of V chords resolving to all 12 roots etc...

I dig this subject... if I have some energy after my gig I'll try and give some examples...

[JonR]

V7 up a 1/2 step... usually also very diatonic tonal harmony, the target is commonly called a Diatonic sub. Deceptive resolution...

example G7alt going to Abma7... the Abmaj7 is a diatonic sub for the above G7alt going to C-7. Technically C-7 would be natural Min and Abmaj7 would be lydian, the model reference is simply to verbally describe the complete note collections.

Yes, I'm feeling a little stupid now . I was trying to think of a V7alt going up a half-step to a tonic. Obviously the minor V-VI move in minor is pretty common.

[wiscart1900]

I am coming back to this thread after a year and a half still a little confused. sorry for the delay!

[QUOTE=Reg;424913]Hey Wiscart...

V7 down a 5th... standard V I dominant cadence... doesn't matter what the V7 or I chord is. All are accessible... some require more setting up. There are different references to use to create different tonal settings.

V7 up a 1/2 step... usually also very diatonic tonal harmony, the target is commonly called a Diatonic sub. Deceptive resolution...

example G7alt going to Abma7... the Abmaj7 is a diatonic sub for the above G7alt going to C-7. Technically C-7 would be natural Min and Abmaj7 would be lydian, the model reference is simply to verbally describe the complete note collections.

V7 up a maj3rd.... same thing only Ebmaj7 being the relative Maj of target C-7.
So G7alt going to Ebmaj7


1) For the

"V7 up a 1/2 step... usually also very diatonic tonal harmony, the target is commonly called a Diatonic sub. Deceptive resolution...

example G7alt going to Abma7... the Abmaj7 is a diatonic sub for the above G7alt going to C-7. Technically C-7 would be natural Min and Abmaj7 would be lydian, the model reference is simply to verbally describe the complete note collections."

----I know that in major keys for example the Cmaj can be subbed for Emin7 or Amin 7 ... Is this the same logic we are then applying here but in minor key Cmin7 being subbed for the flat 6 abmaj7 and if so why is this the case.
Cmin7 is C Eb G Bb whereas Abmaj7 is Ab C Eb G (so we are subbing Cmin7 for C-b6 ?). What are the minor subs we can make for Cmin7 traditionally?


2) V7 up a maj3rd.... same thing only Ebmaj7 being the relative Maj of target C-7.
So G7alt going to Ebmaj7

Is this the same logic? Cmin7 C Eb G Bb and Ebmaj 7 Eb G Bb D (so Cmin9)?

thanks in advance. And for me .. the more detail the better.

[Robertkoa]

As a " writer composer" I try to categorize

and understand other " Cadences" which are sometimes not in the Classical Literature or in the Classical Books I have seen anyway.
Like a frequent "Rock Cadence" might be
VI- bVII-i and there are of course others.

Whatever works to establish or ' flow' toward the Target Key or Target Chordal Region or even more specifically the Target Chord Voicing is what I am interested in ( and why I am here to pick the brains of the Jazz Guys...lol).

One Major difference is in Rock- once we have our Chord Voicings we don't often change them during Performance which Jazz Guitarists routinely do .

Back to Cadences - I have a nickname for a type of Cadence which I call a " Left Field Cadence" where the melodic phrase ends on an ambiguous Chord( not too dissonant) like a Major 7 9 flat five and the next Phrase is in a New Key or back to Home Key but not " set up" or " announced" by a IV -V or ii- V or a vii chord etc.

[christianm77]

Yes, I'm feeling a little stupid now . I was trying to think of a V7alt going up a half-step to a tonic. Obviously the minor V-VI move in minor is pretty common.

I would employ this cadence (B7alt C) as a substitute for G7 C based on augmented structure. Raise the fifth of G7 to make the chord G+7. We have g b d# f. Rearrange to have b d# f g, add the a and we have a B7alt.

Also a sub for the blues cadence IV7 I by tritone symmetry. Also Co7 Cmaj7 is common and related.

I would put this in the large but not often discussed group of chords I call blues cadences, because of the use of #2-3 and #4-5 type movement from the point of view of the tonic.

I like this sound a lot. It seems very suitable for earlier jazz (where G+7 is a common colour) but I also like it in other contexts.

I also like B C as a cadence. Db B C over a pedal is fun too (Naima) also listen to the last phrase in djangos solo on exactly like you. Very guitaristic of course...

[JonR]

I would employ this cadence (B7alt C) as a substitute for G7 C based on augmented structure. Raise the fifth of G7 to make the chord G+7. We have g b d# f. Rearrange to have b d# f g, add the a and we have a B7alt.

Yes, kind of. I'd probably prefer to call that note collection G9+, given the context. To me that would then imply wholetone, not the B altered scale.
Still, I can see that using C and D in the scale (rather than the C# from wholetone) at least has more connection to the key context.

Also a sub for the blues cadence IV7 I by tritone symmetry. Also Co7 Cmaj7 is common and related.

Well, that's a common-tone diminished move, and yes related to F7-C in a C blues, in that F#dim7 (ie Cdim7) is a common transition chord between F7 and C.
Again, I don't think I'd feel the need to think "B7alt" in that context. F lydian dominant would do. But a bass move from B-C might be cool (instead of the F#-G move when using Cdim7-C).

I would put this in the large but not often discussed group of chords I call blues cadences, because of the use of #2-3 and #4-5 type movement from the point of view of the tonic.

Yes - but if you're thinking B7alt in place of the F7, then you don't get a #4-5 move (F#-G). That comes from the Co7 (F#o7).
B7alt (like F7#11) gives you B-C as well as D#-E.

I also like B C as a cadence. Db B C over a pedal is fun too (Naima) also listen to the last phrase in djangos solo on exactly like you. Very guitaristic of course...

Thanks, I'll check that out. (That "enclosure" using a half-step above and below is very "eastern", or - given Django's heritage - gipsy!)

[christianm77]

Yes, kind of. I'd probably prefer to call that note collection G9+, given the context. To me that would then imply wholetone, not the B altered scale.
Still, I can see that using C and D in the scale (rather than the C# from wholetone) at least has more connection to the key context.

Yes the relationship is very close

B7 whole tone - B C# Eb F G A
B altered - B C D Eb F G A

The whole tone is a pretty old school sound. Very 30s/40s. The altered is perhaps more up say, Reg's street - that post bop 60s kind of vibe.

Swapping any melodic minor for a whole tone a half step below is a great move BTW - have you tried this? B whole tone on C minor chord for example. Wes does this.

Well, that's a common-tone diminished move, and yes related to F7-C in a C blues, in that F#dim7 (ie Cdim7) is a common transition chord between F7 and C.
Again, I don't think I'd feel the need to think "B7alt" in that context. F lydian dominant would do. But a bass move from B-C might be cool (instead of the F#-G move when using Cdim7-C).
Yes - but if you're thinking B7alt in place of the F7, then you don't get a #4-5 move (F#-G). That comes from the Co7 (F#o7).
B7alt (like F7#11) gives you B-C as well as D#-E.
Thanks, I'll check that out. (That "enclosure" using a half-step above and below is very "eastern", or - given Django's heritage - gipsy!)

Of course the B-C move is cool, because I use it all the time. :-) I mean you would play a 1st inversion V7 from time to time, right? Or Bm7b5 Cmaj7, Bo7 Cmaj7 etc. B7b5 Cmaj7 or B7+ Cmaj7 not very far away.
TBH I would tend to think C melodic minor.:-)

Well Django doesn't simply play an enclosure - he uses a sideslip in triads - sort of a chordal enclosure. Very cool..

I'm not actually sure if I have caught him using the b2-7-1 on a I chord. I'm sure it pops up in places. But the b2-7-1 thing to my ears is very bebop. But yes, very Eastern too. In Middle Eastern music you have the Hijaz Kar scale, which IIRC you can sometimes use when improvising in the Hijaz maqam.

Hijaz 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Hijaz Kar 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7


(Real ME theory is more complicated, apparently, the tetrachords are where it's at.)

Listening to a lot of classical and romantic music ATM, and they nick a lot of Django's licks. Shameless.

I'm quite interested in the relationships between melody lines and chord progressions and how these can be generalised. After all harmony is just a bunch of melodies together.

[christianm77]

Yes - but if you're thinking B7alt in place of the F7, then you don't get a #4-5 move (F#-G). That comes from the Co7 (F#o7).

Of course. You wouldn't get it with the F7 either.

I don't mean that they have to have the #4/b5 in, more that this is a thing that goes nicely with the b3. So you get your common tone diminished.

(And also bVI7(#11) which is a nice sub for the #ivo7 and adds the b6 into the mix. bVI7 - I I always think is a bit of a dark horse cadence, surprisingly common - Out of Nowhere, Lullaby of the Leaves, I'm Beginning to See the Light, Just Friends etc..)

But, analysing lines over IV-I's and IV-#ivo7-I's, the b3 often seems to be the go to note. Which, obviously, also works for VII7.

Basically, b3-3 and b6-5 always work over everything you are likely to encounter in standards. So either blues (b3 3) or Brahms (b6 5) ;-)