Eb Major Scale or F Dorian

[Reg]

Hey Jonah... sorry I haven't posted, My excuse is I'm just too busy... OK I'm lazy.

Here are a few Vids I made a few years ago, they somewhat explain how I apply modal concepts to playing in a Jazz style.
I apologize for the quality and my playing... a little embarrassing. But I never practice or organized for the videos... just record. I'll try and make something new.

[Biff]

Hi,
I believe the idea of such a solo is in this kind of uncertainty - it is at the same time harmonic ostinato in Eb/Cm and some melodic variation with tendency to modality

[ECHOPLEX]

Hey Reg your playing is inspiring and awesome man.

[Jonah]

Hi Reg,

great playing, thank you for sharing, and taking your time for it
I played through your chages of Autumn Leave.

If I just listened and analyzed it wihout your verbal comments I would just take it as if you put triton substitution to make half-step down bass line and then add or change some notes in the chords to make voicing smoother.

It makes the whole progression practically occasional - except final cadance that is actually original

Though yes it becomes vague in terms of functional tonality and gets a modal feel (and actually to me it's too far from original song - but it's not the topic here)

But in our conversation you mentioned modal concept.. I still cannot hear a concept- a practical method yes but just musically... for example why Bb7b5 (or Bb lydian) after previous chord? Where is this concept that makes these chords connected (Except that you keep in mind original song chart)

maybe I just don't get something

thank you again for patience

[Jonah]

Hi,
I believe the idea of such a solo is in this kind of uncertainty - it is at the same time harmonic ostinato in Eb/Cm and some melodic variation with tendency to modality

I also think so... biut now our conversation with Reg is about modal tonality concept, not just the tendency or camouflage or touch, but the concept.. which I cannot hear so far

[Vladan]

As far as I'm concerned, it is not crucial to define the concept in academic sense of theory.

I think The Concept is to apply all/ any of those things, predefined concepts and methods, tools, devices, ....,
when you feel like it, so it all end as a tune being played in Jazz style, provided you have at least some idea, or even better,
know for sure, how it will sound.

[Jonah]

As far as I'm concerned, it is not crucial to define the concept in academic sense of theory.

I think The Concept is to apply all/ any of those things, predefined concepts and methods, tools, devices, ....,
when you feel like it, so it all end as a tune being played in Jazz style, provided you have at least some idea, or even better,
know for sure, how it will sound.

I agree absolutely... but I am speaking about internal relationship within the music resulted. When it is done, played, recoreded, completed, we listen to it and we hear some internal relationship - we do not verbalize it, think about it - but we hear it other wise we would not be able to percept it even to differ one song from another.

This is what I am just curious about.. this is not about concept as academic rules or strict limitations, this is concep as a hearing of music - that is actually absolutely non-academic, because every person hears some relationship within music if it captured him... and not if it escapes his attention. I am just curious about how people hear it and how it is different to how I hear it...

[Vladan]

I agree absolutely... but I am speaking about internal relationship within the music resulted. When it is done, played, recoreded, completed, we listen to it and we hear some internal relationship - we do not verbalize it, think about it - but we hear it other wise we would not be able to percept it even to differ one song from another.

As soon as you analize, you have to verbalize. Words one use to explain making of product, do not have to directly correspond to words the other one use to describe perception of the product. If there was only talk, two may never understand each other. However, with mentioned product in the middle, connections become more obvious.

[Jonah]

As soon as you analize, you have to verbalize. Words one use to explain making of product, do not have to directly correspond to words the other one use to describe perception of the product. If there was only talk, two may never understand each other. However, with mentioned product in the middle, connections become more obvious.

Of course, but I mean perception, not analysis. Perception is always the first thing, no matter how educated I am, first I hear something coherent, integral, something that I can identify as a seperate event - somewhat unique even, then I can analyze what it is that makes it sound like this for me.

If you break your song on dominant chord most of the people would feel that something is not over, . that is because they are grown up in this musical tradition, the same thing may happen with more complex musical events, they do not analyze just percept.
this is like direct meaning, the sence that music corresponds..

[Vladan]

For the sake of argument ...

One can't perceive something that does not exist. Existance in broadest sense.
So, that something's got to be made, by someone, or something.
That someone must have gave it some thought beforehand. Analysed the possibilities.
If it was made by something, thinking is not prerequisite, like one coud just as well let a stick fall on guitar, and some sound would come out of it. That sound would be made by stick and guitar, on their own. No thinking. No analysis.

As far as I'm concerned, perception (of art) ends at "I do/ do not like it." , as that's where the words start, and possibly "There is something wrong with it.", as that's where rationalization begins.
Everything else is analysis, searching for a reason, "Why I do/ do not like it?", "What is wrong with it?" and everything else.

I'm not sure "Oh, he's not resolving" could be attributed to perception. I think It is analysis, explanation of possible reason for the quality of the state of our minds, piece of art left us in.

To add, all this because in one previous post you seamed to differentiate btw hearing something as "lowered 5th" and "modal", you know what I mean, as one being perception, while other being analysis. Sory if I missunderstood.

[Reg]

Hey Jonah,

The concept is using characteristic modal pitches to create guidelines for governing harmonic movement.

A different organization of regulated note relationship, based on use of the characteristic note of each mode being used as basis of that organization.

The I chord is usually the only tonic, and chords built on each scale degree have their function defined by either having that characteristic note in the basic chord structure or not.

Jazz uses 7th chords as their basic chord forms, not triads.

So the compositional and performance technique has three types of chords... the tonic, chords with and chords with out that characteristic pitch. (the characteristic pitch of each mode is one of the two note which are the tritone of the diatonic key).

This approach may also use the characteristic pitch to imply the tonic or mode, somewhat like a tonic pedal.

As with all musical approaches and techniques... the strict and simple use of the concept can be very boring and may be seen or heard as embellishment of typical functional harmony etc...

And generally the performance will reflect one's understanding.

I'll try and post a more defined example of these modal concepts.

[Vladan]

Wow, Reg, thank you for slowing it down. Very usefull post. For me at least. Hope I won't forget it all, too soon.

[ECHOPLEX]

Reg is a very giving and very talented musician/educator,we are very lucky to have him on a free forum such as this.I have visions of him one day finding out where we all live and sending us the bill for all the lessons.

[Jonah]

Thank you very much, Reg... that sounds more clear, and sounds close to what I could find about Lydian base tonality concept.

So the compositional and performance technique has three types of chords... the tonic, chords with and chords with out that characteristic pitch. (the characteristic pitch of each mode is one of the two note which are the tritone of the diatonic key).

and how the chord is built with thirds like functional harmony or freely just using the mode notes?

[Sailor]

Yikes...what happened to my Grant Green thread!!

I just finished transcribing the Hurt So Bad head and some solo....sounds easy but hard time values.

Bought the score on-line.....nothing like Grant Greens, but to clear something up...last two measures are Fm7, Bb7, Eb6/9. Yes...this piece is in E flat.

tx for all input, Sailor

[Reg]

Hey Sailor... that might be like saying, I lived all my life in Canada... but I just moved to the US... so I'm Americian.

But it also might be like... I've been traveling North America my entire life... but I finally came to Canada, I'm home.

Grant Green... yea, great player, always and still do dig his music.

[Sailor]

hey Reg...i don't get analogy but always great to hear from you

sailor

[Reg]

Hey Sailor... thanks, my analogies usually only work on me. Sorry about that. I was just trying to say the majority of the tune sounds like a few tonal centers and I guess Eb is the last one.

Doesn't really matter... have fun playing the tune... should post some version, I always dig GG grooves.

[Sailor]

certainly jams in f dorian....gg makes it all so funky!

I should post my head transcript but dont really know how.

sailor