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Personally, this is as Mr B was saying pretty standard improve in a jazz modal style, with jazz common practice.
What do your hear as the tonal center or if you had to pick a note as the basic reference.
It would be difficult not to hear "F", in solo section. How you academically define what you use as your tonal or modal reference for improve... is just that... your choice. Generally with that vamp, the F- and C-7 add 11... The F- is the reference and you create relationships or solo.
Very common to have temporary targets to help create or at least give the effect of harmonic movement. Once you establish at harmonic rhythm or pattern, it very easy to develop that pattern by plugging in different harmonic references for each.
Example... using F- Dorian and C- Aeol. Where F- is tonic or target and C- in a dominant style of function, resolving back to F-,
so then you can begin creating relationships from each, each becomes tonal target in it's self, use subs, create chord patterns that replace each target.
Sub Abmaj7 Lyd for F- and G- phry for C-... so
Abmaj7 to G phrygian ... (or Ebma) then,
Abma7 to Bb13sus / Abma7#11 to Gb13
Just those few simple somewhat diatonic subs open the doors to all kinds of blues note access and Melodic Minor.
Generally when you begin to use pentatonics they have a reference, where they come from, even if you just use them mechanically.
And again when using tonality in a modal organizational aspect, jazz modal style... you can establish different guidelines for.... which notes control and how those notes react in harmonic relationship. Your melodic improve can have different harmonic guide lines.
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05-04-2014 12:46 PM
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Could Grant be thinking Bb Mixolydian/Cdorian over the vamp?
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I really think he just plays around C minor with stress to F tone, I think he does it just by ear.
It is a simple song, why making it complex with all those fantastic (often non-existent) scales?
I thought also about one thing, what is important is that C minor is the key, tonality, at least I mean this (not the scale only - C aeolian would be that)... so when it is thet key there can be plenty of melodic solution - it is not only c minor scale notes that you are allowed to play in c minor key.Last edited by Jonah; 05-05-2014 at 07:59 AM.
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Face palm.
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Well when I was listening and playing along, I got the feeling that there was a minor dominant conversion thing going on, f mixolydian over cminor and Bb mixolydian over the fm9.
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When your performing... yea that's what your doing.
But when your discussing the playing and trying to become aware of what the possibilities are and what your playing could relate to, which will help you to actually be able to hear, understand and develop your playing and ears.
This is a different discussion. Jonah... when you decide on C- is the Key, your implying the tonal center is C, when you play or hear C does that sound like the basic reference... the tonic. I'm under the understanding we're talking about the solo section.
Robert... yes that is generally the organization of the form of the solo. A call and answer method using I and V as starting reference and creating relationships from that reference. The developments of that reference and relationship is one of the basic improve methods we use.
A conversations is a perfect analysis... The related V chord of any II Min chord is called a chord pattern, one of the standards in jazz usage. Just as the related II min chord can be used with any V chord.
If the chords are F- to G-... could become, F- Bb7 to G- C7... or
If the chords are Bb7 to C7... could become F- Bb7 to G- C7
It becomes plug and play, one you have a reference, or target you can create relationship with that target, basically what jazz players do, melodically and harmonically.
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Sorry, roberto, my face palm was not directed at you.
It was mean anyway--sorry Jonah as well.
Just don't think you need to view the jam from C minor.
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No problem, mr. beaumont.
My last comment came from the word "thinking" in Roberto's post.
If ever Grant Green thought about something musically during this solo, I think it was c-minor with accent on f.
I really believe he did not play F dorian (I am not even sure if he ever knew what it is).
This piece is not so complex, this solo does not requre this modal knoowledge.
I already actually put my account on how see this piece in details - it was post #38.
To me it seems that actually I see/hear it approximately the same as you do.
And what Reg kindly described is also very clear to me.
But I just still partly disagree.
What I did - I exactly tried to analyse musically from inside, not from practical pont of you. Not academically, but from hearing first of all.
What I described in the post 38 - is it not true?
To me this modal theory in jazz looks partly occasional, these modal lines turned out to be very practical.
Probably it comes from the lenear nature of jazz improvizing, jazz players are like playing line over or against hamony, solo is together with it, but also quite clearly separate (and Bach when improviesed - he did not play over harmony, he played the harmony itself).
Maybe there are also some other reasons why jazz players adopted modal system. But just in pieces like this it is not so much of modality.
And samples that Reg kindly gave are also just very practical. It is not modality... it is like a tip how to play it more easily.
Actually I gave a sample already before: in the chorus of Misty - there is immediately key change to subdominantal key,
(in G it will me Dm7-G7-Cmaj...) then interrupted key change to Bb (Cm7 - F7..) resolved instead to Bm7 - which stars cadance back to G.
So in the first bars you can play mixolydian of the main key tone, it will sound musically ok, because there's no F sharp in the key of C. Then you can play f dorian or whatever... but to me it is better to think of the key and play in the key, not involving all these scales.
The key establishes tonic because of chord relations, in scales key center is establishe practically deliberately by repetion, or intonation that is traditionally connected with this scale.
that is not that just any time that I play C tone in the key of C minor it sounds as tonal center - subdominantal chord also has C in the triad... it is the chord of C-minor that is tonic, and c is the root of this chord.
In 'Hurt so bad' it is not so tonally clear as in Misty, but at least at the beginning of solo it still feels like S-D to c minor.
And I think only long repetion makes the S-D osinato feeling dissapear (f is the root of subdominat and 7th in dominat - just stressing f over these chords will not make it f dorian)
It is repetion of f and the pattern that establishes f as a center tone
Actually I think that this solo was mostly inspired by clear plagal feeling of original somg, li originally it is like always shifting very softly from f- to c-. (I do not consider cadence to G major because they are very unnatural and do not actually establish G as a key center but rather strengthen it as dominant).
And Grant catches this quality and develops it, makes it even more sublte.
He make the key feeling more illusive, but still there is one.
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Guys, I just thought maybe we speak about different things...
I take this solo together with the whole song, wo when it starts I have this tonal feeling..
If we cut this solo out - then I agree It will be most probably f dorian with more less deliberate chordal background behind it, no c minor, almost no tonality feel...
But frankly speaking I prefer to look at a piece of music in integrity.
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It's common practice in jazz though.
Check out "Flamenco Sketches."
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Hey Jonah... do you you understand what modal implies, in the somewhat modern day... and in respect to Jazz. From your comments... I don't think you have a clue, sorry to be rude, but if you would be so kind as to post examples or give a detailed post with examples, I might be more inclined to continue. I've posted many times... many time on the difference between modality and tonality and how they interact.
That's one of my basic grad student questions, about one out of 100 get close.
I was not giving you modal examples of how to approach soloing. I can very easily give you detailed examples of how modal concepts can be applied to any note collection, and how that approach can be employed both macro, the big picture and in smaller micro targets.
There are many more organizational references in jazz than are employed in most other types of music, and especially with what we call classical.
Tonality or the Key according to Maj/Min Functional Harmony organizational concepts is defined by chord relationships... yes but the organizational concepts of which chords and which notes are going to define Function can change with modal
concepts... and other organizational concepts or organization.
I have another gig... I'll check in later.
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Look, guys, this is my quoted comment and mr. beaumont's answer to it.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Originally Posted by Jonah 
Now I could play it, before I just had to listen... I understand what you mean when you say about F dorian, at least I can see where it comes from.. but I still cannot hear it as really modal - it is just a touch of modality, a kind of simple but tricky play.
this is precisely what a lot of "modal jazz" is. It's a bad name, if you like the classical definition. But this stuff happens all the time in jazz post 1959...vamps that imply a note set that happens to be a "mode."
To me this explains all the thing.
Hi Reg,
I undestand the difference between tonality and modality.
I approach jazz as music that I listen to, so I listen to a certain piece of music and one can imply all the modes in his impro but I hear what I hear - if I hear tonal relationships as prevailing, what does it mean? It means that modal method is mostly practical, is a way how to build. But if we analyze it musically it will be occasional, and not obligatory.
Of course it is individual - but still conventional enough - if modality becomes more intensive - then there can be difference - some may hear it as more tonal, some as more modal...
But in general in jazz there's no modality as it is.
You also seem to be ignoring what I wrote... that jazz impro is leanear and it is played against harmony (call it lines against patterns - whatever) and that makes modal approach to technique more convinient. Because mode is line, for modal thinking vertical relationship is secondary - in jazz, in ancient greece, or in modern classics - basically it is the same, the pracitce of it is different.
It is easier to think (or teach) 'modal over harmony' when explaining improvizartional concepts etc.
And your samples are all about how to use modes over harmony.
I believe you are a very good teacher because you explain it all so fine.
But as a result after all we have a music that we listen to. THis is what I am talking about.
And I do not see it necessary to define it strictly - this is modal for sure, and this is tonal for sure, becasue mostly it is hard to define it.
I do not know what samples exactly you mean, this thread song and what I wrote about it was not a sample?
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It is another thing curious for me in jazz... this comes also from gigs when all the people play something one by one.It's common practice in jazz though.
Check out "Flamenco Sketches."
This makes a unique form - it like composed from pieces and at the same time integral.
But the idea was "play and let go"
I think when recording era began the jazz players tried to get more control of the form, to make it more elaborated (because now they could hear what they played after it - and now you just can'y let it go if it does not work as whole piece).
In "Flamenco Sketches" it seems to be used conciously as an idea to build a form.
Besides, I do not thim we should compare "Kind of Blue" pieces - which are really much more modal - to that pop funky song... though of course if we cut out the solo then may be we can cut it in somewhere in Miles' album
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Like I said I don't believe you understand modality in modern use. Modal composition, playing etc... implies... different note relationships....create Function within a Tonal organization.
Tonality has regulated note relationships... Modality changes what the notes are that create those relationships...
Linear and vertical organization are both going on all the time
Just as in maj/min functional harmony which has Tonic, subdominant and Dominant functions with guidelines for how notes in relationships react.... why, how and where chords go.
Modality creates different tonalitys.
Example... Cmaj. Ionian is the modality of Maj/Min functional Harmony, and how you want to understand Music.
Cmin. Dorian could be a different modal tonality with different organization of regulated Note relationships... what creates Function and would define... Tonic, subdominant and Dominant organization.
The grant Green tune is full of examples of these very basic modern Modal Tonal concepts. You might not be hearing and understanding much of what playing jazz is about.
Much of what makes jazz difficult to perform and understand is that it doesn't neatly fit into one of the existing Musical Boxes, and generally many different organizational concepts are going on simultaneously.
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Reg, I just do not understand the meaning in some sentences, maybe it's my English which is not native for me.
It is not irony, I just don't get what you mean for example by
who creates what?Modality changes what the notes are that create those relationships...
No! Ionian is not the modality of major/minor functional harmony. The scope of notes is the same with major and minor tonal scales, but it is not the same in the contextExample... Cmaj. Ionian is the modality of Maj/Min functional Harmony, and how you want to understand Music.
This I do not get again, sorry... you mean c dorian? or c minor? could be different tonality - different relatively to what?Cmin. Dorian could be a different modal tonality with different organization of regulated Note relationships... what creates Function and would define... Tonic, subdominant and Dominant organization.
There's no tonality like c minor dorian if you mean that - or you don't?
There's some background behind me, I do not pretend to be a jazz player, but I have been into listening jazz players for many years - I listned from the earliest players to modern free fusion jazz rock players...You might not be hearing and understanding much of what playing jazz is about.
Much of what makes jazz difficult to perform and understand is that it doesn't neatly fit into one of the existing Musical Boxes, and generally many different organizational concepts are going on simultaneously.
But I did not hear and understand jazz... I just listened to all Coltrane's albums so many times without understanding and hearing. I just listened to it idiotically.
Let us not get into such kind of argument.
We either keep on patiently ecplaining our point or go out of discussion.
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Hey Jonah... Maybe we're just in different worlds... No problems. Do you really want me to explain in more detail?
It seems you already have your understandings, definitions etc... About music.
If you do want to...I don't mind, I enjoy these discussions, and if you would like playing examples , I also don't mind,
im in between gigs now, that's what I do.
In musical language... What or how do you define tonality, not how you feel, the physical organization of what makes a tonality. And the same with modality.
The first quote you used .... Modality changes which notes define the relationships within a tonality...
Ill start again...
Tonality generally implies a collection of notes in which one note becomes the center of that world. One note becomes the basic reference for that tonality. The rest of the notes and combination of notes generally have organizational concepts of how they react in that tonality. Not voice leading, not how we choose to feel what is the right melodic and harmonic use of those notes.... The Guidelines according to the organization of a tonality.
Does any of this work for you... If not, could you explain what tonality means to you, and I'll work with your definition of tonality before I get into modality.... Which is basically what we're trying to discuss.
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Academical definition of tonaliy may be different and often depend on tendencies of certain musicological scholar, often diffrenet in different countries... and it is because the objext is vague and its physical discription will contain sound quality, but music is aesthetics. And aesthetical comprehesion is always individual.
That is why I insist again that matters only what we can hear in music.
Everyone is equal wit the music (or any art). Profane amateur or professor it does not matter, the first might not know the terms and the definition but he might comprehend theinsude music relationshiop and that is more than enough, the professor might be well trained in terms but if he cannot hear how they work in music that makes no sence for musical aesthetics, he does not get the music.
I say only to explain why I always put feel\hear\see before any analyzis in art, though I do not exclude analyzis - on the contrary I like it.
This is not simplification, this is just a nature of art for me, it is open for everyone, the only thing in world that addresses to any peron directly.
So how I understand tonality... for me tonality is first of all a complex tension field with tonic in the center, it is very close to the Universe structure (I think it was not occational that Newton universe was descriped in the same epoch when tonality ruled in music)... so tonic is the the center - the sun - the other notes are planets which have differnt tension not only for tonic but also between each other.
Then in equally tempered system each planet can be also a center of tonality - and not of a less power than was the tonic of the previous one - that is like any planet of tonality can become immediately a Sun.
So these tonalities also correlate somehow - this is actually what claasical tonal music uses - relations between tonalities not within one tonality.
Excuse me this imaginative definition...
Musically tonality is correlated with what is called functions - T, S,D and to define functions we need triads, because functional logic is impossible without triads, so establsh tonality we need to have basic triads, and even when we have only one melodic line in c major scale, in tonal musica it is always meant that there is some triad behind each note (it is like melody is the image of harmony).
Yes we have major scale and it is a scope of notes - but this is a kind of flash back notion regarding scale, we would not hear I as tonic, IV as subdominant, V as dominant, if we had had not triads, because this is tension between triads that makes these notes functional. We would not here 4th step from g to c as resolutive if we did not mean in our mind g-d-g-h resolving into c-e-g-c. That is what makes c tonic in tonality.
This is how I understand tonality.
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Thanks Jonah, nice verbal picture. So we have a common understanding of what Tonality means, and on this thread we are talking with respect to tonalities in Jazz common practice.
So Function is defined by you as triadic movement... V going to I or IV going to I or basically anytime there is chordal movement... there is some type of Function .
Harmonic progressions are basically... three type of functions. Function being the motor that makes the chords move.
Tonic ( I ), Dominant ( V ) and subdominant ( IV ).... all the rest of chords or combination of notes are variations of those three basic functional chord types.
Relative Minor being the main substitute ...
VI = I
III = V
II = IV
next upper relative..
III = I
VII = V
VI = IV
and on and on...From this process and the ambiguity of this organizational system.... A chord becomes defined by it's Function within a series of chords... a progression.
So these definitions and organization of tonality with tonal functions is based on the relationships between pitches, notes.
And the organization of the notes and their relationships is with reference to One central Pitch.... the tonic.
Tension, tension theory, dissonance, consonance, cadence etc... are all part of the organization of this system of defining tonality
It's fairly common to extend the usage of this term Tonality... to become a generic term used for Modes just as well as the common Major - Minor system.
This leads to Tonal functions, Functional Theory with cadence points... One of the major difference when this process of applying Functional Theory to the Modes in Jazz... is the organization of the notes.
"Which notes"... are used to create the relationships that create function.
Just like your three triadic organization and basic tonal functions of I, IV, V ... being Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant. And the organization based on notes in relationships and how they react in those relationships all with reference to a single pitch.
Modality can change the organization of Tonal Function. It doesn't have to, can simply be used to camouflage major - minor Functional Harmony approach.
But it also can become a different organization of Function with a relationship to a central pitch. Triads can have different function.
I apologize for wordy post... there is much more to this discussion, but I'm putting myself to sleep, I'll post some Modal examples... much more interesting. I'll try and incorporate into some type of Technical Study....
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thanks, Reg... what you wrote tonal functionality, yes those all the things that we learn in theory classes.
This I am not so sure, maybe it depends on the country local schools, on language terms also... but ok, anyway, words are words but we are back to the music... if I begin to hear what you talk about, no matter how we call we will come to the point.It's fairly common to extend the usage of this term Tonality... to become a generic term used for Modes just as well as the common Major - Minor system.
For this I would appreciate samples what you consider as ' modality re-organizing tonal functions'. You can refer to any notated or recorded sample if it is more convinient for you- I will catch it. If possible also not just progression of two-three chords with abstract suggested mode realization, but how it works in the context of the song or a piece of music.Just like your three triadic organization and basic tonal functions of I, IV, V ... being Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant. And the organization based on notes in relationships and how they react in those relationships all with reference to a single pitch.
Modality can change the organization of Tonal Function. It doesn't have to, can simply be used to camouflage major - minor Functional Harmony approach.
But it also can become a different organization of Function with a relationship to a central pitch. Triads can have different function.
Thank you and good nightLast edited by Jonah; 05-07-2014 at 03:16 PM.
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Hey Jonah...I'm taking your comments to mean we're continuing this conversation.
Cool, I find it interesting that the only way this conversation works for you and to give any accreditation and recognition to any musical concept... in this case jazz common practice usage of modality.....
Is to use your language, and understandings... and then finally, Your Ears are the only ones that are right. If you don't hear or understand the subject... it doesn't exist.
I don't know you or your background... but mine is very established in jazz in the US. I've been teaching, composing and performing Jazz for over 40 years at the professional level. Know and have performed and still perform with many of the jazz greats.
Your point about what would be suitable modal examples of changing the organization of function... I really don't think any example will work....your very set in your ways. One the characteristics of modal tunes... is very few chord.
But generally the organizational structure... what notes in relationship do which creates Function, is not based on the tritone and it's cadence. The organization is based on use of the characteristic pitch of Modes, much like function in your world revolves around the primary cadence involving the tritone. In modal music the cadence involves using the characteristic pitch, (which is one of the notes of the diatonic tritone).
Much like using traditional analysis for Giant Steps basically misses the concept of the composition, using Major-minor functional harmony for analysis and approach to performing modal tunes... also misses the basic concept of the compositions, with respect to performance in a jazz style.
If your looking for academia... I'm sure you'll been through G Russells "Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization".
Please don't get into modality as simply using modes rather than chordal progression as harmonic framework for Function.
And if your looking for examples that are just Modal with respect to modal functional concepts... come on does any music only employ One principle of anything.
here are some examples... that employ tonalities from Modes
First Light
Follow your heart
Footprints
Tell Me a Bedtime Story
Little B's Poem
So What
Recorame
Black Narcissus
Little Sunflower
Maiden Voyage
Milestones
Ole
Cantaloupe Island
Crescent
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Thank you, Reg.. I know those pieces I will check them over and try to hear and understand what you mean.
may I ask you one question? What would you say about this piece?
This is not jazz, but still -
This is just for me to understand which relationship you hear in this music. This could give me a tip of what we talk about.
Thank you
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Hey Jonah,
They are beautiful , I remember Milan's music from many years ago, when I was young and performed classically.
And yes this might have been contemporary or new at it's time, and is very much modal in the medieval melodic, contrapuntal and even relating to modern Functional Tonal Harmony. And yes this conversation is using as reference...
Mode or modality as a melody or type of scale which through composition with pitch modal function using an organized pitch hierarchy... I don't believe we need a history lesson.
When we talk about 12 tone composition, rhythmic organization, folk, blues, and jazz... terms can develop different usage, due the existing definitions not working in a context... maybe like using black and white to explain colors, it can be done and if your only aware of black and white, it might take a while to become aware of colors... maybe'
Anyway when performing modal Jazz... rhythm section players need to create chordal progressions, different organizations of using basic modal melodic concepts developed into chordal concepts..... and functional organization developed.
Obviously performing jazz is different than traditional compositional performance. A composition can take days, months to organize.... Jazz performance is in the present, no time required. There are different skill sets.
You can simply call the music an embellishment of the established term modal etc... or you can search for new organization aspects. Generally the performance will reflect your understanding.... no right or wrong, but different.
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Hi Reg,
I still belive that we talk about the same things...
In my comment here (it was 38) I described how I hear this son of Gran Green.. and my description far from black or white... on th econtrary I stressed that it is enough just to catch that this or that music has the touch of various cocepts, and no need to stubornly define it - I am not a scientist, and looking for stric academical system that should explain everything... I am only after aethetical feeling and curious aabout how it works..
And I also wrote here about the fact that jazz is strictly connected with performance oractice, and practical methods are of high importance.
So there is no need to convince me.. excuse me for a moment I just thought tat may be you did not read through the whole thread?
Anyway - now no need to come back to that/
I just want to add that when I listne to those songs you gave as samples I of cource here modality and of course I understand that the chords they use are also connected with modes with use, contructed of it, I also can here how - probably conciously - they avoid intervals or nore relations that can refer to some functional harmony...
I can hear that...
What I cannot hear is elaborated concept, as elaborated and evident as functional tonal system od early modality systems...
You see probably they have concepts in their minds, concepts that help them to organize music - especially being in jazz they need it, because they have to make it right away.. it should be always applicable to instrument also, trained at teh instrument..
but as a result I hear a little bit different thing - I hear a kind of modal harmony (sometines it tends for functional with a touch of maodality, some times it is just mostly modal) and that sounds more or less occasional to me how they use it..
namely occasional - not like concept, but like just a harmonical set to support a mode as they hear it...
You mentioned 12 tones system - it is the same thing - when I analyzed music of Schoenberg or Webern I saw that they used this system but as a result when I listend to music I cannot trace their 12 tones modes on the contrary I can hear that the concept they use as a result formed music that is subject inside to other laws.
Even Webern's music which much more pure in it atonality still operates with relations that existed in functional harmony, it uses the same vocabulary...
In 12 tones it is simple to explain, this systemwas primarily ideological and artificial, it is not musical in its essence..
Their system does not make comprehesible form in the piece, and form is the most important thing,, because it is the meaning, the sence after all what we get when (I mean not verbal meaning but s sence of connection, internal relationships and reference that listener get unconciously and which correspond to his other personal notions)
In jazz there is also another differrent poitn which is important - it is the form - I wrote also about it... jazz form is originally sketchy...
You know often I have problem with listening some contemporary players - even mainstream - because I fell like they play around a banch of patterns, I do not hear a song - this is becasue there are often taught llike this, it also comes from this sketchy thing...
And modality also is rooted in it... there was no other way, actualy if you have to play within the limit of just one functional tonality non stop (as often happens in standards) - the functinality of loses its sence, it becomes a kind of 'modality' also...
Sorry for writing so long...
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Hey Jonah,
Thanks for post, We have different ears, that's a good thing. If your understandings work well for you, beautiful.
What might be interesting is to post examples of what we're talking about... even just use the solo section of the tune that started this thread. The F-7 to G-7 or whatever version of that short chord pattern.
I'm in the studio during the next few days and have gigs at night, but I'll post some examples how I use different tonal and modal approaches for improvisation. Different references and different guidelines for creating a harmonically functioning systems. You might hear something or maybe not. But I'll be able to explain what I'm doing while performing, slow down and repeat...
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Hi Reg,
thanks a lot, I will appreciate much the samples, because I am interested to learn any practical cocepts people use in jazz performance.
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