Eb Major Scale or F Dorian

[Sailor]

I bought the original Bobby Weinstein score on-line.
Here's the changespretty much same as M-sters)

Fm7 Gm7 Fm7 EbM7 Bbm7 /Cm7 F7/ GM7

chorus

AbM7 Gm7....Cm

there's more if anyone wants 'em

The vamp, AbM7 Gm7 is tricky 'cause the score I have shows AbM7 voiced as an Fm9, clearly an Fm Gm vamp.

The piece ends on ii-V-I Fm7 Bb7 Eb6/9.

the song is in Eb, (Cm)....the solo sounds F dorian to me....kinda sophisticated little tune!

[Jonah]

Guys, can you explain to me why you put f dorian if the key is Eb(Cm) while he plays solo?
Is it not just Eb major?

He plays over harmonic or chordal ostinato on IV-III in Eb

Since it is repeated so many time it is possible that we lose somehow a sence of key, and then the closest thing would be some G mode - locrian fits the best.

But still to me during all the solo I can hear the suspended resolution either to minor or major (the IV tends to the major, the III to the minor).

Though I can admit that it is somehow in between - and if he kept playing for another 10 minutes I would be ok with stopping at G (but no F definitely).

I believe the idea of such a solo is in this kind of uncertainty - it is at the same time harmonic ostinato in Eb/Cm and some melodic variation with tendency to modality (but not modal)

[mr. beaumont]

This is why modes are um...tricky.

First of all, definitely not in a major key. There's absolutely nothing "major" about this bluesy, "modal jazz" tune. Better to leave the key signature blank as Lionelsax suggested.

Not all notes in a scale (or mode, whatever, just a different word for the same thing) are equally strong. Eb major and F dorian share a note set, but not the strongest notes over a given "backdrop."

Here, The bass sets up F as a reference point. There's no real tension or resolution here, but I still think of the overall tonality of the "jam" section as being based around Fm. Try some good old F minor pentatonic links over this section...there's your F minor or dorian pared down a bit. It's a bluesy tune--so I use the bluesy sound as a starting point.

You could certainly just play Eb major over it...but unless you're paying close attention to the strong notes, you might just float and meander over the harmony...which is fine, in some situations...but this is a funky tune.

don't discount what you can do with triads over stuff like this too...

[Lionelsax]

Guys, can you explain to me why you put f dorian if the key is Eb(Cm) while he plays solo?
Is it not just Eb major?

He plays over harmonic or chordal ostinato on IV-III in Eb

Since it is repeated so many time it is possible that we lose somehow a sence of key, and then the closest thing would be some G mode - locrian fits the best.

But still to me during all the solo I can hear the suspended resolution either to minor or major (the IV tends to the major, the III to the minor).

Though I can admit that it is somehow in between - and if he kept playing for another 10 minutes I would be ok with stopping at G (but no F definitely).

I believe the idea of such a solo is in this kind of uncertainty - it is at the same time harmonic ostinato in Eb/Cm and some melodic variation with tendency to modality (but not modal)

It's definitely modal for me, there is no tonal chords progression, chords go nowhere and there is no tonal resolution.
If the solo runs in F minor and the song in C minor, the solo would be a long "plagal pedal".
Stopping at G ? Why not ? We can think it because I think it's a G maj 7, we are used to hearing that type of chord at the end of many and many standards, quite all. But if we forget the standards, G maj 7 means nothing in this context, except a surprise.

[cosmic gumbo]

F dorian, during the solo, F is being established as the tonic.

[Jonah]

Yes I partly agree with both your opinions. To my hearing the most important issue is uncertainty that I mentioned.
They are like playing around slightly with what we are used to hear, every time when an ear catches something well-known they move aside, but they do it very smoothly at the same time - because the shorter sections of the song are still tonality for me - they playquite regular closes a few times, though they do not set them as tonal center of the song.

By the way I exactly hear this soloing section as a subdominant ostinato/pedal.... And I believe at least when it starts players also heard like this... quite regular thing in tonal music, but later again they started to play tricks about it. The whole idea of a long repetition of a short pattern of course ruins tonal key hearing in it.
Some modern minimalists music could be a sample - most of the Philipp Glass contains major and natural minor but sounds like modal music not tonal.

Dear mr. beuamont, that is why as per modes I cannot fully agree with you... the difference between Eb major and F dorian is that the first one forms tonality relationship, and the second one not.
The 'strong note' (if i understand correctly what you mean by this) in major are 'strong' because of the functional harmony resolutions, that is because they belong to some chord which in its turn belong to one of the three functions. The 'strong' notes in modal music are derived from intonative and motive figures which are just fixed by cultural tradition where these modes are used.

Modality or tonality in clear sence is only a question of cultivated hearing.
Eb ionian and Eb major are exatly the same, but the music written with the first will be al least slightly different than with the second - in its form in organizational principles. In some case these musics can also coincide and then an ear trained in tonality will hear in his mind a missing tonal background, an ear trained in modality will hear intonative, motive organization of the tune.

Difference can be somehow more or less conventionally agreed when we consider also style and total cultural background of the music we speak about.
And what you kindly mentioned about its bluesy touch and more minor tonality to me just this kind of argument because this comes from the feel of a stlyle of this song.
And actully these shifts correspond fine to light relaxing uncertain style of the music, so it works for it.

I just probably do not get the idea of using these modes against tonal background..
I mean if I heard this song without this discussion I would take it as a nice song with vague tonal roots and deliberate changes

Recently, one guy told me that when he solos over Misty he plays in the first bars over G major and then over G mixolidian - I just do not get it
Because there's just C major because the key shifts to IV....
He also can use mixolydian every time he sees dom7th chord - though it is just lowered 7th in major.
To put in both cases a mixolydian is just to make a mess of it all.

[mr. beaumont]

You can't use a "classical" train of thought concerning modes when it comes to jazz post 1959. This stuff happens all the time...

It's just a "key center" based tune instead of traditional functional jazz harmony. No need to overcomplicate it.

[Jonah]

Now I treat it not practically, more theoretically, such things are just intresting to me: how people hear this and and that and why.. that is why it looks overcomplicated.

And I clearly hear traits of modality in jazz after 1959 (even sometimes before), I have no problem with it...
I was interested in early music where there is also modality and there is by the way tvery interesting period of transition to tonality when it is together yet modal and already tonal.

It's just a "key center" based tune instead of traditional functional jazz harmony. No need to overcomplicate it.

What makes certain note the "key center" by your opinion?

[Lionelsax]

I was interested in early music where there is also modality and there is by the way tvery interesting period of transition to tonality when it is together yet modal and already tonal.

What a nice trip ! Now we are visiting the 16th Century !
You're right, Bach and Rameau invented the laws of tonality, in the 18th Century (end of the baroque area) althought pre-tonality took place in the Renaissance and then tonality in the 17th Century before etablishing laws about it.

[Sailor]

After playing and listening for a couple days....the II-V-I at the end, Fm7 Bb7 Eb7 establishes key (Eb)...and F Dorian.

As M-ster said, way back, a lot of the GG solo is just a Cminor bluesy thing. Listen how good C blues sounds over this tune. C minor is relative to Eb.

Easy tune with lots of great jamming possibilities

As with many jazz tunes, I don't always understand the chord choices....Cm7 F7 to GM7?

tx for all the input, Sailor

[randalljazz]

As with many jazz tunes, I don't always understand the chord choices....Cm7 F7 to GM7?

modulation to G major by way of a back door cadence (subdominant minor harmonic device) (Cm F7) after the pivot chord Cm , which then goes to its parallel minor as part of the extended vamp...pretty cool.

[Jonah]

Now I could play it, before I just had to listen... I understand what you mean when you say about F dorian, at least I can see where it comes from.. but I still cannot hear it as really modal - it is just a touch of modality, a kind of simple but tricky play.
All the solo is S-D ostinato in c minor (here I agree no Eb major), f is not tonic here and cannot be tonic, yes it is repeated more friquently and is about making a kind melody center (what they called repercursa in the old 'modular days'))) but here it just belongs to f minor chord and gm 7th chord.

And again I just look at it trying to see the nature within a song, in practice can one use dorian if it works for the result it is his business...

The song is simple and its simplicity in how simply they treat harmony.. a couple of charming unexpected cadances to G major - which are not stable and can be easuily resolved to c minor by the way! - note after first cadence to G major there's quick stacatto ascending line coming to Eb in melody and Ab chord behind it whch in this position sounds clearly as a substitution for tonic c-moll (VI in minor), so it is interupted cadence - and anyway established minor tonic, then bluesy improvisation over S-D ostinato with a modal touch mostly because of long repetition of the pattern. That's it. Simple and cool or rather I say hot.

[Jonah]

What a nice trip ! Now we are visiting the 16th Century !
You're right, Bach and Rameau invented the laws of tonality, in the 18th Century (end of the baroque area) althought pre-tonality took place in the Renaissance and then tonality in the 17th Century before etablishing laws about it.

Yes)))
weekly trip for me, two nights with rennassance lute, two with baroque, two with archtop - and one day for recovery to find out where I am and who I am)))

[mr. beaumont]

Now I could play it, before I just had to listen... I understand what you mean when you say about F dorian, at least I can see where it comes from.. but I still cannot hear it as really modal - it is just a touch of modality, a kind of simple but tricky play.

this is precisely what a lot of "modal jazz" is. It's a bad name, if you like the classical definition. But this stuff happens all the time in jazz post 1959...vamps that imply a note set that happens to be a "mode."

[randalljazz]

16th century was a long time ago...it means what it means now...

[Lionelsax]

16th century was a long time ago...it means what it means now...

Jazz has been like a Renaissance (Rebirth) in western music, musicians from Renaissance and Baroque weren't so different than jazzmen.
Classical music and Romantic music killed improvisation and freedom.

[Sailor]

Love your comment Jonah, although I only understand about half of it Lot's of C minor to be sure....bluesy.

I'm transcribing head and some solo just for fun...very straightforward.

what happened in 1959 Mr. B. So What??

Also you right about "early" music. There was a lot of lute and keyboard improvisation....figured-bass was mind blowing. Just a few numbers written for you to instantly improv over.

Sailor

[mr. beaumont]

C minor? During the solos?

1959? So What indeed...changed jazz forever.

[VanDan]

It's clearly 3 flats, but certainly not tonically EbM. I'm leaning towards Mr.B's comment way back, stating G phrygian, although you could certainly play F dorian or Cm pentatonic over the whole thing (for the most part). I lean towards the G phrygian, as I just improvised over the tune and I constantly kept finding myself resolving my phrases with G. I'm no expert, but that's just how I feel it, and this modal stuff can be quite ambiguous, which is what we all love about it, I presume. Fun tune!

Dan

[Jonah]

16th century was a long time ago...it means what it means now...

Yes, I think you are right.. it is somehow adopted now and works in its own way. But still as I said method is one thing, and sound is the other.
I just follow what I hear and then find where the theory lies - not vice versa, and music is practical that is if guys use modality as a method ok, if some other methods also ok. But as a result I hear whar hear and it maybe some differetn thing.
rs.

Jazz has been like a Renaissance (Rebirth) in western music, musicians from Renaissance and Baroque weren't so different than jazzmen.
Classical music and Romantic music killed improvisation and freedom.

But I love also Romanticism - genius were any time)))
I partly agree the improvization existed but the priciples of were absolutely different. In modality mostly polyphonic means, in tonality it was relationship between tonalities first of all.
And jazz is mostly inside in concern of tonality, it is melodic (close to vocal intonation) line played/exclaimed/screamed/cryed/laghued etc. over... well over whatever we have at hand)))
Jazz improvizing is amateur in its nature - some poor guy picks up an axe he has around and sings what he has on his mind with it over background he finds around.
And rennaissance and baroque improvizatio were professional, they had to improvize the form itself, not the melody over backgroud. By the way during classical period they also were great improvisers.
But I think continuo is very close to modern comping in practical realization.
But the most important difference that it has always been written tradition behind it, they did not gather for jams, they came to play (or improvize) exquisite, elaborated piece of music.

By the way I think there were no other way for development in late 50s: either it goes to classical means - complex key changes, or to get rid of tonal funtions where possible... that is to madality

Probably it could be a great thread for everybody, but I am afraid off-topic here.

[Sailor]

"you could certainly play F dorian or Cm pentatonic over the whole thing"

That's what I've been using for soloing over the vamp and sounds mighty cool to me

Good points Jonah.

Tx, Sailor

[Vladan]

Without listening, from what you all wrote, it must be he played some blues in F, little bit of minor, little bit of Major?

[Vladan]

On listen there's no major. Interesting question. I found my self most comfortable in position for Eb major, middle finger on 11th fret.
The second best was F position, index finger on 13th, for bluesy stuff.

[Sailor]

Transcribing head and some solo....having a hard time counting GG's ornamented notes. Do you guys here a lot of triplet use or am I confused??? They could be tied or dotted 8ths, etc....

Tx, Sailor, struggling to count

[Lionelsax]

You can try audacity and play the song very slowly.