Pentatonic Scale over ii V

[shreddingjoris]

The chord progression is: II--> V (in the key of D major). (Dorian mode.)
Way's to solo over this with pentatonics:

1: Play D major pentatonic (because the major pent. has the same notes as Ionian minus the fourth and seventh.)

2: Just play E minor pentatonic over this because it resolves to the E minor chord.

3: Play A major pentatonic because it has notes that both chords have.

These three methodes will sound good, and the reasoning (i think) behind all of this, is that the notes from the II and V chord get accentuated by the intervals from the scales of each of these three methodes.


I even made a little chart (in dutch).

"Akkoord" means chord, and "overeenkomende noten" means similar notes (notes that both chords and scales have).

So basically what i'm trying to say (or think) is, "scales just have to match the chords more or less to sound "good".
Now this a theory that i made up, so i wonder what u guys think about it and what u might have to add.
1: Is it wrong to see it this way?
2: Are there better ways to "view" my three statement about soloing over the progression?
Thanks!

[targuit]

I know this sounds glib, but when I start reading dissertations on what mode or scale to use over each chord, my brain begins to explode. My response remains the same. "Twelve tones in Western scales. Use them all, but remember especially to play the notes that sound good to your ear. E, voila!"

So much easier.... But, hey, some people think using Calculus to figure out their grocery bill is fun...

Here is a video clip of some of the finest jazz guitarists on the planet. A serious suggestion - study what these guys are playing. Do you think they are thinking about which scale to play over the chords?

Jay

[shreddingjoris]

I understand what u are saying, but even u at one point needed to figure out what scale sounds good over what chord ;-). I'm just trying to figure out more methodes, even thou i have a very good ear and can play instantly over chords without thinking about it (unless it's very complicated jazz ;-)).

[GuyBoden]

So basically what i'm trying to say (or think) is, "scales just have to match the chords more or less to sound "good".
Now this a theory that i made up, so i wonder what u guys think about it and what u might have to add.
1: Is it wrong to see it this way?
2: Are there better ways to "view" my three statement about soloing over the progression?
Thanks!

Yes, pentatonic scales can sound great, IMO I'd learn to be able to play/hear the 3rd, 5th and 7th of each chord on any down beat, the notes you play between the chord tones can be pentatonics, chromatics, scale fragments anything you like really.

[JonR]

The chord progression is: II--> V (in the key of D major). (Aeolian mode.)

Aeolian mode? How does that apply on a ii-V in a major key?
...

So basically what i'm trying to say (or think) is, "scales just have to match the chords more or less to sound "good".

True.

Now this a theory that i made up, so i wonder what u guys think about it and what u might have to add.
1: Is it wrong to see it this way?
2: Are there better ways to "view" my three statement about soloing over the progression?

IMO, yes. Yours works, but it omits some useful points. (And btw, you've shown your A chord with a C note, should be C# ).

The way I see it - and it's true I've arrived at this "simple" view after many years - is:

ii-V in D major = Em - A

Chord tones first (foundation, "inside" notes):
Em = E G B
A = A C# E

Pentatonics (add two more consonant notes):
Em = E G A B D (adds 4th and 7th)
A = A B C# E F# (adds 2nd and 6th)

Diatonic passing notes (two remaining notes from D major)
Em: passing notes = F#, C#
A: passing notes = D, G.

In jazz, however, one would normally begin from 7th chords. So the foundational chord tones would be:
Em7 = E G B D
A7 = A C# E G
It's then simpler to just consider the 3 additional diatonic scale notes as passing notes, and possible extensions:
Em7: F# = 9th; A = 11th; C# = 6th or 13th
A7: B = 9th; D = 11th; F# = 6/13th.
C# anticipates the A7 chord, so would not be used much on Em7. Likewise, D is considered an "avoid note" on the A7 chord - doesn't mean you can't play it, just be careful about stressing it.

A 3rd, more advanced set of note choices is the 5 chromatics - all the other notes outside the key scale (D#/Eb, F, G#/Ab, A#/Bb, C). These can all be used, but normally need to resolve pretty quick to the nearest chord tone or extension (half-step away).

IOW, all 12 notes are in play, but it's about understanding how they relate to the chord tones: how "inside" or "outside" they are. The diatonic scale is fine, but the chromatics add a useful bluesy, spicy edge.

That might all look complicated, but it's simple enough in action, and always works. Modes are not relevant, btw, and I don't believe there's any need to consider advanced "jazz scales" or substitutes: they are always just ways of providing certain alternative note groupings, including some chromatics. That's OK, but the point about chromatics is their resolution. That's really all you need to know about them: you can use any outside note as long you know how to get back in .

[shreddingjoris]

I can't believe i made those two stupid mistakes!
1: I meant to say Dorian mode.
2: Major triad is A, C#, E.

I'll read your post in the morning, thxs for pointing this out!

[targuit]

Joris - Theory is like the skeleton of the body. It supports the flesh, but is not 'visible' to the naked eye.

The ear trumps all in terms of effectiveness, immediacy, and speed. A function of 'time on the instrument' and deep understanding of where you want to go. Literally. If you focus on where you wish to end up, your fingers and ears will find their way there. A hell of a lot faster than explaining how you got there - an hour late.

Jay

[JonR]

Joris - Theory is like the skeleton of the body. It supports the flesh, but is not 'visible' to the naked eye.

The ear trumps all in terms of effectiveness, immediacy, and speed. A function of 'time on the instrument' and deep understanding of where you want to go. Literally. If you focus on where you wish to end up, your fingers and ears will find their way there. A hell of a lot faster than explaining how you got there - an hour late.

This.

Theory is all very well, but it's after the event. Continuing the body analogy: when you walk down the street, you don't plan each muscle move; you don't need to understand how bones connect, or how gravity works. You can do it because you learned a long time ago (and by trial and error too). The more you play music, the more its workings become second nature.
There's no harm in knowing the theory of course - and any way you can make sense of it is OK. (Eg, maybe you believe you can walk because there's magic threads holding you up... That's fine unless you want to be a teacher of biology...) But don't think about it while you're playing. That's how you trip up.

[shreddingjoris]

Thanks that was helpful!

Just one more thing i asked before but forgot...

"Pentatonics (add two more consonant notes):"
Em = E G A B D (adds 4th and 7th)
A = A B C# E F# (adds 2nd and 6th)

Is the seventh in the minor scale complete or incomplete consonant?

Further on i interpreted the following statement: "A diatonic scale/chord is considered to be major when it implies a major second".
Wrong or true? ("In a way", because there are ofcourse flattened seventh chords etc, but they have this interval so it's partial considered major.)

Now, i would like to address this statement as diatonicly full on! So no alternations.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Yes, pentatonic scales can sound great, IMO I'd learn to be able to play/hear the 3rd, 5th and 7th of each chord on any down beat, the notes you play between the chord tones can be pentatonics, chromatics, scale fragments anything you like really.

(I made up this little example some time ago.) As a general comment, I think the scale choice matters less that we imagine. As long as you establish the tonality at the beginning (don't go outside too quickly!), resolve at the end, nail some chord tones along the way, then the "in between" notes can be almost anything.

Here's an example of what I mean. Over a C7, shall we play C lydian dominant or C altered? One is the other, raised a tritone, so they are opposites, so to speak. Here's a simple lick that uses all the scale tones and no passing tones, done first with C lydian dominant (wish that Gb could have been notated as a F#) and then with C altered (The chords are | C7 | F | C7 | F |).

The two takes sound more similar than different to me.

[JonR]

Thanks that was helpful!

Just one more thing i asked before but forgot...

"Pentatonics (add two more consonant notes):"
Em = E G A B D (adds 4th and 7th)
A = A B C# E F# (adds 2nd and 6th)

Is the seventh in the minor scale complete or incomplete consonant?

I don't recognise the terms "complete or incomplete" consonant. I guess you mean "perfect or imperfect consonance" - and classically, of course, a seventh is dissonant in any kind of context.
But jazz is different - not totally, but enough to require different kinds of judgement. So 7ths can still usefully be considered "dissonant", but in a very mild way; and not enough to necessarily require resolution.
Eg, a major 7th on a major triad is dissonant, but perfectly acceptable to jazz ears as a stable sonority. Not exactly a consonance, maybe, but an attractive dissonance at least.

Same applies to a minor 7th on a minor triad. It may have a functional dissonance - eg if the chord is a ii in a major key, in which case the 7th will resolve down to the 3rd of a following V chord. But equally we can hear a min7 chord on its own without feeling it needs to resolve anywhere.
So the 7th of the minor pentatonic can sit on the chord quite comfortably as an "inside" note; as can the 4th, which is arguably more dissonant theoretically, but still sounds fine, at least in a jazz context.
Even if you still think of 4th and 7th as "not quite consonant" (imperfect consonance?), they're still good as primary passing notes between the triad tones.

And btw, consonance and dissonance is not related to scales. Only to intervals and chords. IOW, it makes no sense to describe the 7th of a scale as consonant or dissonant; it has to interact with another note to be judged in that way.
There can be melodic dissonance, but that's when we perceive a harmonic relationship between two notes. Eg, if one note jumps to a note a 7th above or below, it may sound dissonant because we hear how they would relate if heard simultaneously.

Further on i interpreted the following statement: "A diatonic scale/chord is considered to be major when it implies a major second".

Whoah - did I say that? It's not true, and it should read "third":

"A diatonic scale/chord is considered to be major when it implies [or contains] a major third".

Likewise:

"A diatonic scale/chord is considered to be minor when it implies [or contains] a minor third".

The standard major and minor scales both have major 2nds.
Harmonic minor has a major 2nd and major 7th.
Melodic minor has major 2nd, major 6th and major 7th (the 3rd is the only difference from the major scale).
The only minor mode which has no major intervals is phrygian.

Wrong or true? ("In a way", because there are ofcourse flattened seventh chords etc, but they have this interval so it's partial considered major.)

Yes, a dominant 7th chord has a major 3rd and minor 7th - and used to be called a "major minor" chord for that reason.
Likewise, we can have a minor triad with a major 7th - still called a "minor major 7th" chord: "m(maj7)".

Now, i would like to address this statement as diatonicly full on! So no alternations.

Sorry I don't know what you mean.

[GuyBoden]

In jazz, however, one would normally begin from 7th chords. So the foundational chord tones would be:
Em7 = E G B D
A7 = A C# E G

It's then simpler to just consider the 3 additional diatonic scale notes as passing notes, and possible extensions:
Em7: F# = 9th; A = 11th; C# = 6th or 13th
A7: B = 9th; D = 11th; F# = 6/13th.
C# anticipates the A7 chord, so would not be used much on Em7. Likewise, D is considered an "avoid note" on the A7 chord - doesn't mean you can't play it, just be careful about stressing it.

A 3rd, more advanced set of note choices is the 5 chromatics - all the other notes outside the key scale (D#/Eb, F, G#/Ab, A#/Bb, C). These can all be used, but normally need to resolve pretty quick to the nearest chord tone or extension (half-step away).

IOW, all 12 notes are in play, but it's about understanding how they relate to the chord tones: how "inside" or "outside" they are. The diatonic scale is fine, but the chromatics add a useful bluesy, spicy edge.

JonR, this is great advice, I like how you start simply with just using the chord tones.

[Phil in London]

I think the approach to say "just play by ear and forget theory, thats how the big guys are doing it" misses the point. Lots of very good players start off based on a solid theory background.

Regarding pentatonics, the idea is essentially to reduce scales to their essence and thus work out the characteristics of what wants to hear. If you play Emin A7 Dmaj, then you might want to bring colour into the game by pointing out the dorian element in Emin, and for the A7 chord, by mapping the pent scale back to alterations that work over the dom7 function.

In practical terms, you can (e.g.) use E F# G B C# for E dorian. For A7, consider using C min pentatonic, giving you b2, #2 (= min3), b5, #5 and b7: Bb, C, Eb, E# (=F), G. Dmaj would then be D maj pent.

You can slide this nicely from the C# in E dorian to the C in C min pent and then use the Eb in that scale to guide down to D maj pent. Try it out, it works.

[JonR]

I think the approach to say "just play by ear and forget theory, thats how the big guys are doing it" misses the point. Lots of very good players start off based on a solid theory background.

They might, but they play by ear in the end.
I certainly agree that knowing theory will do no harm, the point is to keep it in its place. It's just names for sounds, and some sounds can have a few different names, we just use the labels that make best sense for us, and enable us to discuss the sounds with others most easily.

Regarding pentatonics, the idea is essentially to reduce scales to their essence and thus work out the characteristics of what wants to hear. If you play Emin A7 Dmaj, then you might want to bring colour into the game by pointing out the dorian element in Emin

meaning... ?
The "dorian element" in Em amounts to the C#, really, and that's not normally the best note to go for when the chord is a brief ii in D major - because it's a guide tone on the A7. IOW, you'd be obscuring the difference between the chords, because the other guide tone (G) is shared by both chords. The D-C# move is the essential functional difference.
[But see below on the last part of your post ]
IMO - and no offence intended here - this is an example of a misleading use of theory (of modal terminology). Dorian mode really has nothing useful to do with a ii chord in a major key. It's a ii chord in ionian mode, not a i chord in dorian mode.

Of course, as long as one understands how the chords are functioning, then one can choose to subvert that by various means: one could reverse that guide tone line, accent the C# on Em7, the D as a sus4 on A7, and then the C# as maj7 on D. [Or your chromatic suggestion...] But that's still nothing to do with modes.
I can see no way in which it helps to think of the Em in that context as a "dorian" chord. (We should already know that a C# note is part of the scale, and not a C.)

, and for the A7 chord, by mapping the pent scale back to alterations that work over the dom7 function.
...
For A7, consider using C min pentatonic, giving you b2, #2 (= min3), b5, #5 and b7: Bb, C, Eb, E# (=F), G.

Right! Superimposed pentatonics are a good way of getting easily remembered structured phrases on an altered dominant. The alterations are what matter, but "C minor pent" is one neat way to get all the good ones. (You miss the major 3rd, but that's all).
But it can easily be combined with a Bbm triad, to get the C#(Db).

Still, the main thing to remember about the alterations is how they lead on to chord tones or extensions on the next chord. The altered scale is not about piling up some nice dissonances on the V7; it's about creating a whole palette of half-step resolutions to the tonic (Dmaj in this case, including 6, maj7 or 9 extensions).
Bb - goes to A or B
C - goes to B or C#
Eb - goes to D or E
F - goes to E or F#
G - goes to F#.
(The missing C#, of course, goes to D).

Dmaj would then be D maj pent.

You can slide this nicely from the C# in E dorian to the C in C min pent and then use the Eb in that scale to guide down to D maj pent. Try it out, it works.

Right! So that's the kind of subversion of the standard guide tones I was talking about!
But still not really anything to do with "E dorian". The C# is available because it's in the local diatonic scale.

IMO, one needs to begin from a thorough knowledge of how the usual guide tones work, in conventional functional sequences, before one embarks on alterations, substitutions and superimpositions.

IOW, the "theory" that's fundamental here - the essential foundation - is that of "functional harmony": the diatonic kind first (eg unaltered ii-V-Is) and then the chromatic kind - secondary dominants, tritone subs, etc.
Modes are a whole other kind of harmony and musical structure.

[shreddingjoris]

Thanks for all the info guy's!
Helps alot ;-).

[Phil in London]

JonR, I find it funny that you first explain that players play by ear, and then try to slam the c# in Emin from a rather simplistic understanding of theory.

Modes, in jazz, are used not so much to justify that c# is part of Dmaj or Edorian, or to define tonal centres, but rather to get stuff that sounds good into your fingers. And I know from experience that if one practices how to play an E dorian scale, he will play better than if just fiddling a Dmaj scale over Emin.

So: Yes, to mention E dorian does not add much from a perspective of functional harmony, but it helps to create the muscular memory in your fingers that finally helps to play a simple turnaround by ear in an interesting way, without just hammering D major.

This is not my opinion, btw, this is how its taught across instruments, and it works.

[Phil in London]

PS: please dont tell me that D maj and E dorian is comprised of the same tones... yes, I know that, but then, from a playing perspective, there is a difference.

Your argument that the c# is the guide tone of A7 (to tonic) and should therefore not be used in the context of E min (ii), neglects a whole army of great players who use the pent as indicated in my post rather successfully (by ear!) ;-)

[GuyBoden]

As the old saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat............................................... ...........

[AlainJazz]

PS: please dont tell me that D maj and E dorian is comprised of the same tones... yes, I know that, but then, from a playing perspective, there is a difference.

Why? I'm not trying to provoke here. I'd just like to understand what you mean. To me, those are notes that can be played in any combination that fits to the music and since they are the same notes, I don't see the difference.

[GuyBoden]

I've been attending Jazz workshops and lessons for over 30 years, the one thing I've learned is that there are many different ways to approach playing Jazz.

[Phil in London]

well, Guy, I agree, I got too authoritative, thats not what is intended. At the end, one just plays some tones, and there are lots of roads to get there.

The difference between the modes and how to study and use them is well explained in this video. If you listen in, you will know what I meant:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLZC...&v=8ZMCbf1TfRc

[GuyBoden]

well, Guy, I agree, I got too authoritative, thats not what is intended. At the end, one just plays some tones, and there are lots of roads to get there.

The difference between the modes and how to study and use them is well explained in this video. If you listen in, you will know what I meant:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLZC...&v=8ZMCbf1TfRc

Yes, that's a great video, many years ago, like many other guitarists in the NW, I had lessons with Mike Walker and studied modes in all keys using the whole of the fretboard until my fingers bled.

[shreddingjoris]

One small question, Yes or no (if u can).

Just as the scales C major and A minor are related, so are the chords.
I mean, yes all chords found in the harmonised major scale are related (chord families etc...).

But do people say "the chord C major is related to the chord A minor" ? (Or in reverse.)

[ColinO]

Yes. (By saying that "all chords in the harmonized major scale are related" and since Am is in the C major harmonized scale, you have answered your own question)

[shreddingjoris]

Yes. (By saying that "all chords in the harmonized major scale are related" and since Am is in the C major harmonized scale, you have answered your own question)

Thank u!
Ok, few more questions about chord families.
The key is Eb major (Eb--> F--> G--> Ab--> Bb--> C--> D° (I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VI)).
And here is a chord progression that uses all the chord from this key.

Cm--> Fm--> Bb--> Eb--> Ab--> D°--> G --> Cm.

VI II V I IV VII III VI

The only exeption is Gm -->G.
Question number one:
Is this considered to be like the basics of pop music? Meaning music progresses in fourths...

Question number two:
What examples are there of this progression? (I would like some pop examples please).
I already found these:

-Dave Brubeck – Take five.
-Cher – Strong enough.
-Shakira -- hips don't lie.

Question number three:
The progression starts with the VI chord, so it's in the key of minor. Now, does the numbering system of chord families only apply to the following order of the major key?
I= Tonic family: III & VI <---- Alternatatieven.
IV= Sub dominant family:II<---- Alternatief.
V= Dominant family: VII <---- Alternatief.


Thanks for taking the time!