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Quick questions false or true...
A major chord progression always starts on the I chord?
A minor chord progression always starts on the VI chord (from a harmonised major scale perspective).
And last, why do we say that a song is in the key of (lets say) D major, when there are keychanges "in" the song?
Do we say "in the key of D major" when the majority of the song is played in that key? Or when the song BEGINS on the D major chord?
Because when the songs begins on (for example) the IV chord, that means we play in the Lydian mode.
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02-26-2014 05:49 AM
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False. (Satin Doll is in C, and starts on Dm7, the ii chord.)
Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
False. And don't relate minor keys to major in that way. It's too confusing. If a song is in A minor and starts on A minor, then it's started on the i chord. Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
You said you wanted true/false answers. This can't be answered that way. There are internal modulations in songs, generally not actual key changes. You want variety and harmonic colour? That's where they come from. Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
You said the previous question was the last one. This also can't be answered true/false. Look at the key signature and major cadence points to determine what key a song is in. Just because we start on the IV chord doesn't necessarily mean we're playing in the Lydian mode. Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
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First off, yeah... it's pretty obvious that some of my questions can't be answered by true or false... I don't understand why u need to point that out, but i digress...
I should first make clear that i'm speaking "diatonicly" (no jazz stuff).
-Why shouldn't i relate minor to major? They both have the same chords when u harmonize the major or minor scale.
I mean there is even the concept of "the related minor".
-I haven't heard of the concept "internal modulations", so when i say "modulating from the key of C major to F major", that's a keychange. Every chord that is not in the respected major or minor key, is a keychange for me. (I need to look into the concept of internal modulations to change my mind about this.)
-I would like to know when a song is in the key of D major. I mean your example "Satin Doll is in C, and starts on Dm7, the ii chord", is pretty vague to me. Pls explain further, is it the majority of the chords (groups) that decide?
For example:
In the key of D major: V-->VII-->I. Then there is a keychange to "let's say" the key of G major: V-->VII-->I.
Is it because the song "starts" with chords fromthe D major scale, that the title is "in the key of D major"?
-" Just because we start on the IV chord doesn't necessarily mean we're playing in the Lydian mode." True, but then again, i'm only talking "diatonicly".Last edited by shreddingjoris; 02-26-2014 at 10:33 AM.
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Citing Satin Doll was merely a quick reference to support my answer. It's a very commonly played tune that starts on the iim7 chord, rather than the I chord. Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
I think you're over analyzing. Accept that something is in a given key, and find some notes that sound good over it.
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"Accepting it", means one guy will say it's in the key of Bm, while the other will say it's in the key of D major...
So that's why i think: Major chord progression starts on the I chord.
Minor chord progression starts on the I chord (from a harmonized minor scale p.o.v).
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So by your logic, since Satin Doll starts on Dm7, it's not in the key of C? Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
Good luck calling that tune on the bandstand.
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Sure it is in the key of C major! At least when the chords after the chord Dm7 are from the key of C major. Else Dm7 could be from (for example) the F major key.
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Funny how there is not a straight answer...
So unless someone can explain to me, i would say:
-A major chord progression starts with the I chord from the harmonized major scale.
-A minor chord progression starts with the I chord from the harmonized minor scale.
When a song doesn't start with either of these, the chords would come from "a" major or (related) minor key, diatonicly speaking ofcourse.
Again, i'm not talking jazz! Think of a basic pop/rock song.
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OK, but the way your statement was worded, the meaning most would take from it is that Major key progressions must start on the I chord. Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
It sounds like what you really need is a way to identify tonal or key centers in tunes, so you can select a major key pitch collection that will work over it. That's essentially how Jimmy Bruno gets students improvising.
In fact, he uses Satin Doll quite a lot, as it has so many ii-V's in it.
Dm7 |G7 |Em7 |A7 |Am7 D7 |Abm7 Db7 |C
Dm7 to G7 is a ii-V in C
Em7 to A7 is a ii-V in D
Am7 to D7 is a ii-V in G
Abm7 to Db7 is a ii-V in Gb
Spend some time trying those major pitch collections over those changes. It's a really useful way to learn how internal modulations work.
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Ok, thxs i'll check it out!
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Wait... so how would u call a chord progression where u know that all of the chords come from the key of C major, but don't start on the I chord?
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I'd call it a progression in C major...because that's what it is.
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Why don't u call it a progression in A minor?
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Because you said the chords were in C major. A minor might be different...if there was an E, it might not be an Em...very likely an E major or E7--even in a pop or rock tune.
In a pop rock context, the first chord is often a pretty big clue as to what key a tune is in...the LAST chord might be an even better clue. Where do things resolve? Where is home?
Do you have an actual example or is this all hypothetical?
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
If the progression is in A minor, there will almost certainly be a V7 in A minor that leads back to the tonic at some point...and that's going to be some kind of E7 (often E7(b9)), so right away that takes us to chords that are not diatonic to the key of C.
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Yeah, but what if i didn't told u these where chords from the key of C major? I mean, if u say the song is in C major, and i say it's in A minor, who is right? Nobody... So i would say: A major chord progression starts on the I chord, A minor chord progression on the I chord (of the minor scale).
Remember, we are not leaving the diatonic major/minor scale!
So yes, it's a hypothetical question.
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Well, if there are no non-diatonic chords, then it's most likely in C. Depending on your selection of chords, and their destination, if could be construed as a modal progression. Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
Even a hypothetical question needs context.
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Hypothetical isn't really getting us anywhere in this conversation.
How about an example?
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If the destination is the I chord of the minor scale, but it starts (for example) on the III chord (in the same key), then u could say that the progression is in the Dorian mode. But when it starts with the I chord, u play the Aeolian mode a.k.a it's a minor chord progression.
Again, nothing leaves the diatonic structure, and nothing modulates.Last edited by shreddingjoris; 02-26-2014 at 01:14 PM.
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Dorian? Starting on the iii?
Be very careful of saying a chord progression is "in a mode." Almost always NOT. Better to think of modes as something that works with a progression--like jamming a mixolydian scale over 2 major chords a full step apart...(A mixolydian over an Amajor to Gmajor jam)
We're still pussyfooting here...what's the progression?
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Still not enough info.
So, let me give you an example:
Am7 |Am7 |Am7 |Am7 |
Dm7 |Dm7 |Am7 |Am7 |
Em7 |Em7 |Am7 |Am7 |
Minor or Major? It's got chords that are diatonic to C Major, right? However, it doesn't have a proper V7 to tonicize the Am7 - and Am7 isn't exactly a tonic minor sound - most folks use a plain minor chord, minor/major7th or minor 6th for a tonic chord in minor.
It's a modal blues. Constant structures with the same mode expected for all changes. At least, that's the way I conceived it. Write an actual melody, and that might change things again.
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C major: I--> II--> III--> IV--> V--> VI --> VII
major minor minor major major minor diminished
A minor:I--> II--> III--> IV--> V--> VI --> VII
minor diminished major minor minor major major
(I made a big mistake about III= phrygian mode, so nevermind.)
I don't have an example right now, so i'll make one up.
The key is ????
The chords are: Dm--> F--> G--> Am.
This is the whole song, so what key is it in?
-After analysing, the chords come from the C major/A minor scale.
-Since it resolves into Am, i would/could say:
1: The song is in the Dorian mode.
2: The song is in the key of A minor because it resolves in it???
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If it's Dorian, then it should resolve back to Dm. If it resolves to Am and the sound is Dorian, you'd need an F# in the scale.
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That's a pretty tricky one, really...the progression just kind of "floats." There's no real resolution.
Certainly, all the chords are in A minor...and to my ear, A minor sounds more like a place of rest than any of the other chords. Let's put it this way, if this were a song I was playing, I'd be more apt to let it end on an Am than a Dm.
Those chords are also all diatonic to D minor...forget D Dorian...what sounds like home to you, Dminor or Aminor?
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If this progression keeps looping, i would say this is a chordprogression in the Dorian mode period. I don't understand why there needs to be an F#? What does that have to do with anything? Originally Posted by GodinFan
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