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I'd agree that it is in A minor, more specifically aeolian because of the F and Dm chords both include an F, not an F#
You could probably look at it as D minor too, but it probably depends on the melody, also Am to Dm isn't as strong as a resolution as G to Am (in my opinion)
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02-26-2014 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
If it's D Dorian, that's your tonic.
If it's a constant structure modal piece like So What? - you keep the same type of mode built on different roots.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
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This progression starts on the Dm chord.
If i play D dorian over this chord (witch belong to this chord when u harmonize the scale), it will accentuate the chord, and the chord that follow.
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Originally Posted by GodinFan
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
still--what sounds like home?
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If i would play this progression, i would say that it finds resolution in Am.
So i guess i answered my own question, and make this statement:
-Whenever a song only uses diatonic chords and doesn't change key, and doesn't start on the I chord (major of minor scale), u find out where the progression ends. Is the last chord the I chord of eather a major or minor key? Then u know if ur playing a major or a minor chord progression. However, if it modulates to another key that uses AGAIN diatonic chords, then the very first progression is a modal progression... So then the question is, what if it never resolves in eather the I chord of a major chord progression, or the I chord of a minor chord progression?
I think u would have people from all sides saying it's in the key of Xmajor or Xminor...
Who is right?
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
The problem, as I was explaining it to a student yesterday, is that minor keys aren't simple.
We have the Natural Minor scale - aka Aeolian mode - A B C D E F G A
We have the Harmonic Minor scale - A B C D E F G# A
We have the traditional Melodic Minor scale - A B C D E F# G# A (ascending) (descending form is the same as the Natural Minor.
We have the Jazz Melodic Minor - same as the ascending form of the Melodic Minor, but retaining the same form descending.
Three of the modes derived from the Major scale are thought of as minor scales. The Aeolian, as previously mention.
The Dorian - A B C D E F# G A
The Phrygian - A Bb C D E F G A
In jazz, it's not unusual to use a mixed modal approach where we draw from many of these variants to get the colour tones we want over the chord of the moment.
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
Or no one.
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I realise there are more "minor scales/modes". But i never mentioned one besides the natural minor scale "Aeolian".
So i just see the relative minor/major scale, as twins.
-Both same chords, same scale, different root, different sound.
Someone said i was overcomplicating things, but i think u guys are ;-). (I don't mean any disrespect, and correct me if i'm wrong).
To the matter of who is right or wrong... "no one", is what i thought so.
So i made the statement of saying:
-A major chordprogression starts on the I chord of it's respected harmonized major key.
-A minor chord progression starts on the I chord of it's respected harmonized minor key.
- If a progression begins on any other chord that is to be found in the major/minor scale, without a keychange, u analyse the mode.
ALL DIATONIC!
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Are you still hung up on this "first chord" thing?
What I think you are trying to do is discover the overall key of a piece of music (or a section of a larger piece). Am I right? To do this, you should consider the whole progression, not just the very first chord.Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 02-26-2014 at 03:44 PM.
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Start with listening for the most prominent note/chord in a song regardless of where it starts.
Often this will be obvious and sometimes it is a puzzle.
Traditionally, a key is asserted by a V7 I cadence at important rhythmic junctures.
Dm F G Am does not contain such a cadence and can be defined as modal in reference to the central note/chord.
Rhythm placement matters but all things equal, let's say a recurring sequence ||: Dm F | G Am :||
I would say it is in D minor. The chords all derive from the C major scale, but are dorian in nature.
||: Am Dm | F G :|| on the other hand is centered around Am and is aeolian in nature.
Minor keys are messy and borrow notes and chords from several sources which makes them harder to define. Secondary dominant leading tones expand the note collection without changing key.
A key or harmonic area embraces notes beyond the starting referential 7 notes of a major or minor scale.
The best way to understand this is to learn and analyze many songs.
Last edited by bako; 02-27-2014 at 02:56 AM.
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You came here to ask a question, but it feels more like your trying to prove a point. It sounds as though everyone is going around in circles in this thread. As its been stated, it doesn't matter what the first chord is. What is the key signature, what does the progression look like as a whole, and finally what are the resolutions?
This will point you to your key center.
If you found a way that works for you, then that is something all together different.
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
In music- pop, rock, classical, jazz, country, whatever- songs do not always start or end on the I major or i minor chord. Simple as that. On many charts the key signature doesn't really reflect the real key of the song. There are some indicators such as the ii-V-I cadence, but sometimes those are deceptive too.
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
I guess i was trying to find a straight answer, and couldn't let go until i found one.
I realize u have to look at this progression from a modal p.o.v, so i guess that's it...
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
That's because "Key" is all about how it sounds, not just looking at a bunch of chords and deciding what scale they're harmonised from. The key chord is the one where the tune sounds like it comes to rest, "comes home".
If the chords all come from one diatonic scale, the major key option is the most likely (most common). But other modal options are possible. Eg, aeolian mode as pointed out.
Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
Eg, C-Am-F-G-A-F#m-D-E. First 4 chords in C major, next 4 in A major.
Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
(BTW, in commercial recordings, songs can fade out on a non-tonic chord, so the final chord you hear in a song may not always be the key; but in that case the song won't sound finished; which is typically why such songs have fade-outs when recorded.)
Modal tunes also usually have a sense of "tonal centre", but it may be weaker than a key sound, and it may shift unpredictably. Modal tunes - at least in jazz - usually feature at least two different modes (different scales as well as different roots).
Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
Same as the key of A minor is a different key from C major. It's "relative" (shares the same notes), but has a different keynote (tonic).
Whereas A major and A minor are the same "key", just different "tonalities". Changing from A major to A minor - I have it on good authority - is not (strictly speaking) a change of "key", because despite all the scale differences the keynote is the same. They'd be termed "parallel", rather than "relative". (Personally I find it counterintuitive to say they're the "same key" - I say they're "parallel keys" - but AFAIK it's correct.)
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
Happy twin, sad twin, maybe. But that analogy might suit C major and C minor better than C major and A minor.
Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
-A major chord progression ends on the I chord of it's respected harmonized major scale (and in rock at least it usually starts on that chord too)
-A minor chord progression ends on the I chord of it's respected harmonized minor scale (which is the same notes as the relative major).
- If a progression ends on any other chord that is to be found in the major/minor scale, without a keychange, u analyse the mode... possibly.
Ending on any other chord than an obvious major or minor tonic will set up a question, certainly: but it's all down to which chord sounds like home.
Eg, if you have a chord progression that looks like it's in C major (or maybe A minor) - everything harmonised from those 7 notes - but it ends on Dm, the question is what does it sound like when it ends on Dm? Does it sound unfinished, like a surprise ending? Then it's still likely to be in C major or A minor (whichever of those chords has a more final sound in the rest of the song). Only if the Dm makes a satisfying final sound would you analyse it as being "in D dorian mode". And if that's the case, then the Dm chord is almost certain to be a big presence in the rest of the tune: probably the first chord, probably the most common chord by far. That's the main way that Dm can establish itself as tonal centre of that scale, because it has to fight the more familiar sounds of C major and A minor.
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@jonr: A minor is indeed the parallel minor of A. a classically trained musician would more likely say that going from one to the other in a piece constitutes a "change of mode".
they are not, however, the "same key"--they have the same key center or key note.
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Well, 99% of the time there are right answers, but not everyone gets their theory right...
On a personal pragmatic level, I look at it like this:
If I believe X to be true, what musical actions will this lead me to do?
How do I feel about the resultant sounds?
How does that compare to other alternative thoughts/theories on the same subject matter?
Thinking of I and VI as twins, seems a bit strange to me, more like family members in my view.
So I ask shreddingjoris, what are the advantages of this belief?
Jon or anyone else?
Re; ||: Dm F | G Am:||
Do you really hear this in Am?
Since the rhythm was never presented, it is impossible to tell for sure.
If it was a Phillip Glass song and each chord lasted 4 minutes, then I would hear each chord as a tonal center.
In the context above, to my ears, Dm is the obvious reference tonality, and if I were to resolve on the final chord that is where I would end.
||: Dm F G | Am :||
This on the other hand would begin to raise the profile of Am.Last edited by bako; 02-27-2014 at 10:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by randalljazz
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Originally Posted by bako
I agree that some kind of rhythmic content might change the balance. Eg, assuming 4/4, syncopating the F and Am (bringing them forward an 8th note) strengthens Am as key chord for me - maybe just because it shortens the Dm and lengthens the Am.
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I can hear the opening Dm as a IVm in Am but to quote Reg, "my starting reference" is Dm as the tonal center.
Without context, that is how I hear it.
This also would strengthen the case for Am;
||: Dm/A F/A | G/A Am :||
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Originally Posted by bako
Obviously a starting chord does have a lot of impact, especially if you begin with the idea (even subconsciously) that that's the key. I think a lot of rock players work that way, certainly a lot of rock songwriters do.
Starting Dm7-G7 (just once) might suggest a ii-V in C major, or a i-IV in D dorian. The more it cycles, without going to C, the more it will sound like D dorian. But as soon as it hits a C, it's C major (to my ears). Which doesn't mean I won't call the previous vamp "D dorian", if that's how it sounds.Last edited by JonR; 02-27-2014 at 01:16 PM.
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