Chord progressions

[tacofarm]

I'd agree that it is in A minor, more specifically aeolian because of the F and Dm chords both include an F, not an F#
You could probably look at it as D minor too, but it probably depends on the melody, also Am to Dm isn't as strong as a resolution as G to Am (in my opinion)

[GodinFan]

If this progression keeps looping, i would say this is a chordprogression in the Dorian mode period. I don't understand why there needs to be an F#? What does that have to do with anything?

Which Dorian mode? D Dorian? A Dorian?

If it's D Dorian, that's your tonic.

If it's a constant structure modal piece like So What? - you keep the same type of mode built on different roots.

[shreddingjoris]

That's a pretty tricky one, really...the progression just kind of "floats." There's no real resolution.

Certainly, all the chords are in A minor...and to my ear, A minor sounds more like a place of rest than any of the other chords. Let's put it this way, if this were a song I was playing, I'd be more apt to let it end on an Am than a Dm.

Those chords are also all diatonic to D minor...forget D Dorian...what sounds like home to you, Dminor or Aminor?

These chords are not all diatonic to D minor. G is major, not minor.

[GodinFan]

These chords are not all diatonic to D minor. G is major, not minor.

They ARE diatonic if you're saying that it's D Dorian. You can have modal minor tunes.

[shreddingjoris]

This progression starts on the Dm chord.
If i play D dorian over this chord (witch belong to this chord when u harmonize the scale), it will accentuate the chord, and the chord that follow.

[shreddingjoris]

They ARE diatonic if you're saying that it's D Dorian. You can have modal minor tunes.

I was talking about the D minor scale.

[mr. beaumont]

These chords are not all diatonic to D minor. G is major, not minor.

Yep, typing faster than I was thinking.

still--what sounds like home?

[shreddingjoris]

If i would play this progression, i would say that it finds resolution in Am.
So i guess i answered my own question, and make this statement:

-Whenever a song only uses diatonic chords and doesn't change key, and doesn't start on the I chord (major of minor scale), u find out where the progression ends. Is the last chord the I chord of eather a major or minor key? Then u know if ur playing a major or a minor chord progression. However, if it modulates to another key that uses AGAIN diatonic chords, then the very first progression is a modal progression... So then the question is, what if it never resolves in eather the I chord of a major chord progression, or the I chord of a minor chord progression?

I think u would have people from all sides saying it's in the key of Xmajor or Xminor...

Who is right?

[GodinFan]

I was talking about the D minor scale.

The problem, as I was explaining it to a student yesterday, is that minor keys aren't simple.

We have the Natural Minor scale - aka Aeolian mode - A B C D E F G A
We have the Harmonic Minor scale - A B C D E F G# A
We have the traditional Melodic Minor scale - A B C D E F# G# A (ascending) (descending form is the same as the Natural Minor.
We have the Jazz Melodic Minor - same as the ascending form of the Melodic Minor, but retaining the same form descending.

Three of the modes derived from the Major scale are thought of as minor scales. The Aeolian, as previously mention.
The Dorian - A B C D E F# G A
The Phrygian - A Bb C D E F G A

In jazz, it's not unusual to use a mixed modal approach where we draw from many of these variants to get the colour tones we want over the chord of the moment.

[GodinFan]

Who is right?

Hypothetically - everyone.

Or no one.

[shreddingjoris]

I realise there are more "minor scales/modes". But i never mentioned one besides the natural minor scale "Aeolian".
So i just see the relative minor/major scale, as twins.

-Both same chords, same scale, different root, different sound.
Someone said i was overcomplicating things, but i think u guys are ;-). (I don't mean any disrespect, and correct me if i'm wrong).

To the matter of who is right or wrong... "no one", is what i thought so.

So i made the statement of saying:

-A major chordprogression starts on the I chord of it's respected harmonized major key.
-A minor chord progression starts on the I chord of it's respected harmonized minor key.
- If a progression begins on any other chord that is to be found in the major/minor scale, without a keychange, u analyse the mode.

ALL DIATONIC!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Are you still hung up on this "first chord" thing?

What I think you are trying to do is discover the overall key of a piece of music (or a section of a larger piece). Am I right? To do this, you should consider the whole progression, not just the very first chord.

[bako]

Start with listening for the most prominent note/chord in a song regardless of where it starts.
Often this will be obvious and sometimes it is a puzzle.
Traditionally, a key is asserted by a V7 I cadence at important rhythmic junctures.
Dm F G Am does not contain such a cadence and can be defined as modal in reference to the central note/chord.

Rhythm placement matters but all things equal, let's say a recurring sequence ||: Dm F | G Am :||
I would say it is in D minor. The chords all derive from the C major scale, but are dorian in nature.
||: Am Dm | F G :|| on the other hand is centered around Am and is aeolian in nature.

Minor keys are messy and borrow notes and chords from several sources which makes them harder to define. Secondary dominant leading tones expand the note collection without changing key.
A key or harmonic area embraces notes beyond the starting referential 7 notes of a major or minor scale.
The best way to understand this is to learn and analyze many songs.

[Melodic Dreamer]

You came here to ask a question, but it feels more like your trying to prove a point. It sounds as though everyone is going around in circles in this thread. As its been stated, it doesn't matter what the first chord is. What is the key signature, what does the progression look like as a whole, and finally what are the resolutions?
This will point you to your key center.

If you found a way that works for you, then that is something all together different.

[Cunamara]

Yeah, but what if i didn't told u these where chords from the key of C major? I mean, if u say the song is in C major, and i say it's in A minor, who is right? Nobody... So i would say: A major chord progression starts on the I chord, A minor chord progression on the I chord (of the minor scale).

Remember, we are not leaving the diatonic major/minor scale!
So yes, it's a hypothetical question.

It's a rather poorly constructed hypothetical question. You're looking for some kind of rule that doesn't really exist (especially outside of jazz and classical).

In music- pop, rock, classical, jazz, country, whatever- songs do not always start or end on the I major or i minor chord. Simple as that. On many charts the key signature doesn't really reflect the real key of the song. There are some indicators such as the ii-V-I cadence, but sometimes those are deceptive too.

[Cunamara]

I realise there are more "minor scales/modes". But i never mentioned one besides the natural minor scale "Aeolian".

So i just see the relative minor/major scale, as twins.

They aren't twins despite sharing a key signature. They are distinct things.

[shreddingjoris]

They aren't twins despite sharing a key signature. They are distinct things.

I see them as ying yang, one happy one sad.

I guess i was trying to find a straight answer, and couldn't let go until i found one.

I realize u have to look at this progression from a modal p.o.v, so i guess that's it...

[JonR]

If i would play this progression, i would say that it finds resolution in Am.
So i guess i answered my own question, and make this statement:

-Whenever a song only uses diatonic chords and doesn't change key, and doesn't start on the I chord (major of minor scale), u find out where the progression ends. Is the last chord the I chord of eather a major or minor key? Then u know if ur playing a major or a minor chord progression.

Yes, that's a pretty good ground rule. The final chord of a song is a safer clue to the key than the first chord. Still not 100% certain - but if the first chord AND the last chord are the same, then you're approaching a 99% safe bet. (I know of one exception to the rule, and there may be more...)

That's because "Key" is all about how it sounds, not just looking at a bunch of chords and deciding what scale they're harmonised from. The key chord is the one where the tune sounds like it comes to rest, "comes home".

If the chords all come from one diatonic scale, the major key option is the most likely (most common). But other modal options are possible. Eg, aeolian mode as pointed out.

However, if it modulates to another key that uses AGAIN diatonic chords, then the very first progression is a modal progression...

Ah, no. A tune can modulate between different major keys or minor keys. Modulation doesn't determine what was happening before.
Eg, C-Am-F-G-A-F#m-D-E. First 4 chords in C major, next 4 in A major.

So then the question is, what if it never resolves in eather the I chord of a major chord progression, or the I chord of a minor chord progression?

Then it could be a modal tune. Major and minor key chord progressions ALWAYS have a sense of a tonic chord as "home", always a point of rest somewhere. A place you can call "I".
(BTW, in commercial recordings, songs can fade out on a non-tonic chord, so the final chord you hear in a song may not always be the key; but in that case the song won't sound finished; which is typically why such songs have fade-outs when recorded.)
Modal tunes also usually have a sense of "tonal centre", but it may be weaker than a key sound, and it may shift unpredictably. Modal tunes - at least in jazz - usually feature at least two different modes (different scales as well as different roots).

Who is right?

Thing is, people use the word "key" in confusing ways sometimes. It should mean that sense of "tonal centre", of a home point in a progression, sounding like the period on a sentence. But some people will use it to mean simply "scale", so they might look at a tune in D dorian mode and say it's "in the key of C". Those people would be wrong! D is its "keynote", it just happens to share the same notes as the C major key.
Same as the key of A minor is a different key from C major. It's "relative" (shares the same notes), but has a different keynote (tonic).
Whereas A major and A minor are the same "key", just different "tonalities". Changing from A major to A minor - I have it on good authority - is not (strictly speaking) a change of "key", because despite all the scale differences the keynote is the same. They'd be termed "parallel", rather than "relative". (Personally I find it counterintuitive to say they're the "same key" - I say they're "parallel keys" - but AFAIK it's correct.)

[JonR]

I realise there are more "minor scales/modes". But i never mentioned one besides the natural minor scale "Aeolian".
So i just see the relative minor/major scale, as twins.

Well, they're "relative", so there's a logic there. I wouldn't use the word "twins", because that suggests they're indistinguishable, whereas C major sounds very different from A minor.
Happy twin, sad twin, maybe. But that analogy might suit C major and C minor better than C major and A minor.

-Both same chords, same scale, different root, different sound.

Exactly.

To the matter of who is right or wrong... "no one", is what i thought so.

Well, 99% of the time there are right answers, but not everyone gets their theory right...

So i made the statement of saying:

-A major chordprogression starts on the I chord of it's respected harmonized major key.
-A minor chord progression starts on the I chord of it's respected harmonized minor key.
- If a progression begins on any other chord that is to be found in the major/minor scale, without a keychange, u analyse the mode.

ALL DIATONIC!

No. It's more true (though still not 100%) to say:
-A major chord progression ends on the I chord of it's respected harmonized major scale (and in rock at least it usually starts on that chord too)
-A minor chord progression ends on the I chord of it's respected harmonized minor scale (which is the same notes as the relative major).
- If a progression ends on any other chord that is to be found in the major/minor scale, without a keychange, u analyse the mode... possibly.
Ending on any other chord than an obvious major or minor tonic will set up a question, certainly: but it's all down to which chord sounds like home.

Eg, if you have a chord progression that looks like it's in C major (or maybe A minor) - everything harmonised from those 7 notes - but it ends on Dm, the question is what does it sound like when it ends on Dm? Does it sound unfinished, like a surprise ending? Then it's still likely to be in C major or A minor (whichever of those chords has a more final sound in the rest of the song). Only if the Dm makes a satisfying final sound would you analyse it as being "in D dorian mode". And if that's the case, then the Dm chord is almost certain to be a big presence in the rest of the tune: probably the first chord, probably the most common chord by far. That's the main way that Dm can establish itself as tonal centre of that scale, because it has to fight the more familiar sounds of C major and A minor.

[randalljazz]

@jonr: A minor is indeed the parallel minor of A. a classically trained musician would more likely say that going from one to the other in a piece constitutes a "change of mode".

they are not, however, the "same key"--they have the same key center or key note.

[bako]

Well, 99% of the time there are right answers, but not everyone gets their theory right...

In an average college theory class there is generally one right answer to a question.
On a personal pragmatic level, I look at it like this:
If I believe X to be true, what musical actions will this lead me to do?
How do I feel about the resultant sounds?
How does that compare to other alternative thoughts/theories on the same subject matter?

Thinking of I and VI as twins, seems a bit strange to me, more like family members in my view.
So I ask shreddingjoris, what are the advantages of this belief?

Jon or anyone else?

Re; ||: Dm F | G Am:||

Do you really hear this in Am?
Since the rhythm was never presented, it is impossible to tell for sure.

If it was a Phillip Glass song and each chord lasted 4 minutes, then I would hear each chord as a tonal center.
In the context above, to my ears, Dm is the obvious reference tonality, and if I were to resolve on the final chord that is where I would end.

||: Dm F G | Am :||

This on the other hand would begin to raise the profile of Am.

[JonR]

@jonr: A minor is indeed the parallel minor of A. a classically trained musician would more likely say that going from one to the other in a piece constitutes a "change of mode".

they are not, however, the "same key"--they have the same key center or key note.

Yes, thanks for clarifying. I knew it didn't seem right to call them "the same key"...

[JonR]

Jon or anyone else?

Re; ||: Dm F | G Am:||

Do you really hear this in Am?
Since the rhythm was never presented, it is impossible to tell for sure.

If it was a Phillip Glass song and each chord lasted 4 minutes, then I would hear each chord as a tonal center.
In the context above, to my ears, Dm is the obvious reference tonality, and if I were to resolve on the final chord that is where I would end.

||: Dm F G | Am :||

This on the other hand would begin to raise the profile of Am.

Yes, but I can also hear Am as key centre in your first sequence, assuming each chord lasts the same amount of time. Less definitely, admittedly, but to my ears it's about equal to Dm as candidate for key chord, maybe a little stronger.

I agree that some kind of rhythmic content might change the balance. Eg, assuming 4/4, syncopating the F and Am (bringing them forward an 8th note) strengthens Am as key chord for me - maybe just because it shortens the Dm and lengthens the Am.

[bako]

I can hear the opening Dm as a IVm in Am but to quote Reg, "my starting reference" is Dm as the tonal center.
Without context, that is how I hear it.

This also would strengthen the case for Am;

||: Dm/A F/A | G/A Am :||

[JonR]

I can hear the opening Dm as a IVm in Am but to quote Reg, "my starting reference" is Dm as the tonal center.
Without context, that is how I hear it.

Right, but I let the sequence unfold before I decide what the reference is. IOW, my perception of key centre can change as a sequence progresses. It's usually fixed after a few measures, but sometimes takes longer.
Obviously a starting chord does have a lot of impact, especially if you begin with the idea (even subconsciously) that that's the key. I think a lot of rock players work that way, certainly a lot of rock songwriters do.

Starting Dm7-G7 (just once) might suggest a ii-V in C major, or a i-IV in D dorian. The more it cycles, without going to C, the more it will sound like D dorian. But as soon as it hits a C, it's C major (to my ears). Which doesn't mean I won't call the previous vamp "D dorian", if that's how it sounds.