Phrygian Dominant Scale - The fifth mode of Harmonic Minor

[AlsoRan]

I was monkeying around and came across a nice sounding set of notes based on the fifth mode of Harmonic Minor. I did a little research and found out that many call it Phrygian Dominant.

Has anybody incorporated it into their playing or had any experience with it? It seems to match up well with 7b9 chords because of the M3 and the b2.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I seem to prefer the altered scale. Let's compare:

G Alt.: G An Bb Bnat Db Eb F
G P.D.: G Ab B C D Eb F

symmetric difference:

G Alt.: Bb Db
G P.D.: C D

I'd say there's nothing wrong with P.D., but the Altered scale works just as well over 7b9 and wins in the head-to-head comparison: C is an avoid tone and Db is cooler than D.

[randalljazz]

i use fragments that could be considered to be from this scale, and from the 3rd mode of the harmonic major as well. i like the sound of b13>5 lines, absent from the alt scale, whose whole-tone-y bits grate on my ears sometimes.

[JonR]

I was monkeying around and came across a nice sounding set of notes based on the fifth mode of Harmonic Minor. I did a little research and found out that many call it Phrygian Dominant.

Has anybody incorporated it into their playing or had any experience with it? It seems to match up well with 7b9 chords because of the M3 and the b2.

It would be a natural choice on a minor key V chord, although there's no need to go as far as considering it a special chord-scale. It's just the minor scale of the key, adjusted to take account of the leading tone (3rd of V). Why would one choose anything else there?

However, theorist Mark Levine has claimed that jazz players almost never use harmonic minor - which seems surprising given it's obviousness as a minor key V choice. His extensive listening to classic jazz didn't throw up more than a couple of clear examples of its use, so he relegated it to a mere afterthought in his Jazz Theory Book.
Conventional jazz theory - perhaps in trying to explain this anomaly - states that the problem with the scale (relative to the V chord) is it has two "avoid notes": the 4 and b6 (A and C on an E7 chord in A minor). Hence the recommended choices of either the altered scale or the HW dim scale on minor key V7 chords, because they have no avoid notes (which means any note in the scale can form a useful chord tone or extension).

Of course, we don't have to agree with this orthodoxy! Not only can we choose this scale if we like the sound of it, but if we want support from jazz greats we can make a case for at least partial use of harmonic minor by Charlie Parker for one. (He would use arpeggios or scale runs which can be interpreted as harmonic minor; just not conclusively enough for Mark Levine, one presumes.)

One issue with phrygian dominant - the sound of harmonic minor on the V chord - is that it does sound very Spanish... and jazz isn't really Spanish music...

[AlsoRan]

It would be a natural choice on a minor key V chord, although there's no need to go as far as considering it a special chord-scale. It's just the minor scale of the key, adjusted to take account of the leading tone (3rd of V). Why would one choose anything else there?

Ha, Ha. I can recall that you are not a fan of using the term "mode" and all its theoretic implications; but, I understand your point. Many share your view.

However, theorist Mark Levine has claimed that jazz players almost never use harmonic minor - which seems surprising given it's obviousness as a minor key V choice. His extensive listening to classic jazz didn't throw up more than a couple of clear examples of its use, so he relegated it to a mere afterthought in his Jazz Theory Book.

So that's why I could not find much on Harmonic Minor in his book when I read it a few years ago!

One issue with phrygian dominant - the sound of harmonic minor on the V chord - is that it does sound very Spanish... and jazz isn't really Spanish music...

I hear it the same way. So I am using it more with vamps, Latin Jazz, or as RandallJazz stated above, which was sparingly as a fragment of a line or improvisation over a given dominant chord.



Thanks a lot!

[mr. beaumont]

Don't play flamenco sketches without it!

I also like it occasionally over 7#9 chords, especially those going to I minor

[AlsoRan]

Nice video listen from a young fella on this topic.


He jogged my memory. This mode/scale brings the song "Caravan" to mind!

[jster]

@AlsoRan: I think that JonR's point is pretty important. It isn't an exotic thing. It is the most natural choice for a minor progression V chord. It's the one you get when you just sharp the third. Historically, it was the first scale used at a minor cadence. Now people didn't like it because of the augmented 2nd, so they invented (the fifth mode of) melodic minor. And then jazzers came up with more things to play over that chord. But the "Phrygian Dominant" was the first scale used over a minor progression V chord.

I remember a couple of years ago thinking that I wasn't supposed to be using it in jazz because I had observed the same thing as Levine. But then a couple of forum members (who will remain nameless but may be participating in this thread) talked me into using it sometimes!

[bako]

Modes to me are a kind of ear training playground and not a rulebook.
When practicing, it is like taking a survey of what a particular combination of harmonic intervals have to offer.
When I play, although it often amounts to the same thing, I apply intervals to chords and not scales.
If you don't want an aug 2nd at particular moment, you are not obliged to play it, just because it's the next scale tone.
This mode differs from mixolydian by b9 and b13, some altered sounds with a natural 5th.
Phrygian has most of the same notes without the aug 2nd, replaces 3 with b3.
There are many gradations of tension possible on dominant chords, learn them all and play whatever suits your taste and/or the musical situation that you find yourself in.

Some theorists present the idea that only some modes are useful and you can ignore the rest.
I look at it differently, knowing a scale means being familiar with it's interval structure in relation to every note as a root.
What you do with this information then is up to you.

[AlsoRan]

@AlsoRan: I think that JonR's point is pretty important. It isn't an exotic thing. It is the most natural choice for a minor progression V chord. It's the one you get when you just sharp the third. Historically, it was the first scale used at a minor cadence. Now people didn't like it because of the augmented 2nd, so they invented (the fifth mode of) melodic minor. And then jazzers came up with more things to play over that chord. But the "Phrygian Dominant" was the first scale used over a minor progression V chord.

I remember a couple of years ago thinking that I wasn't supposed to be using it in jazz because I had observed the same thing as Levine. But then a couple of forum members (who will remain nameless but may be participating in this thread) talked me into using it sometimes!

Jster,

I want to make sure we are clear.

Phrygian Dominant is 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, and b7, which are the intervals created by starting on the fifth of the harmonic minor scale. I am writing this because you mentioned an augmented 2nd and a sharp 3rd, neither of which are in this particular mode/scale. Are you sure we are talking about the same thing here?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the sake of any one new to this:

Harmonic Minor has these intervals: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7
-if you treat the 5th note (in red) above like a root of the scale/mode you have Phrygian Dominant, which uses the same distances (intervals) between each note, but treats the fifth as the root.
Phrygian Dominant: 1, b2, 3, 4, 5, b6, b7

so from A Harmonic Minor: A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A, you would start from the fifth note, E and have E Phrygian Dominant, emphasizing that "E" as being the root, giving you E, F, G#, A, B, C, D

I like the sounds of the different note as they go to the root. Very different for my ears but a scale that I enjoy using for some reason. Maybe because it conjures up images of the beautiful belly dancers, putting on show in a tent - kind of like you see in many desert movies (especially the ones with mummies) that I used to see as a kid.

[bako]

The augmented 2nd occurs melodically between the b2 and the 3 (F-G#)

[JonR]

This mode/scale brings the song "Caravan" to mind!

Right! That does have a strong phrygian dominant flavour - being largely on a C7 chord in key of F minor.
Of course, Duke was making the most of the scale's "exotic" sound for a tongue-in-cheek "Arabian desert" effect.
There's a passing B natural in the main line, which helps too, by invoking (momentarily) the even more "eastern" double-harmonic scale. And the long chromatic descent to the tonic passes through a phrygian b2 to F.

[AlsoRan]

The augmented 2nd occurs melodically between the b2 and the 3 (F-G#)

Got it, bako.

[jster]

bako has explained the augmented 2nd. By "a sharp 3rd", I just meant change the G which is the 3rd of Em, the v chord in A minor, to get a G# which is the 3rd of E, a V chord. I should have said change from a b3 to a 3.

[ll00l0l]

Maybe I'm missing something, but this scale seems a natural choice for a V7b9b13 chord (I didn't see that mentioned explicitly). The avoid note (4) would IMO be treated as merely a passing tone. All the other pitches fit the chord.

[JonR]

Maybe I'm missing something, but this scale seems a natural choice for a V7b9b13 chord

Yes. If you ever see such a chord. And if whoever wrote didn't mean to imply the altered scale...

The avoid note (4) would IMO be treated as merely a passing tone.

Right. That's always the case with avoid notes: they're no problem as passing notes. It's as chord extensions that they don't work (need to be avoided).
Took me a long time to get that... (The issue being that if a chord player chooses to harmonise from a scale with no avoid notes, the soloist needs to be aware of that.)

[christianm77]

Phrygian Dominant very common choice on the VI7 chord in Charlie Parker's music. Check out Donna Lee, Confirmation, Little Willie Leaps, many others....

[JonR]

Phrygian Dominant very common choice on the VI7 chord in Charlie Parker's music. Check out Donna Lee, Confirmation, Little Willie Leaps, many others....

Agreed - although I think it helps to understand it functionally as V/ii.
Eg, if the chord is A7 in key of C major, and it's going to Dm (as it almost certainly is), then the D harmonic minor scale makes sense. You get the C# of the A7, and also a juicy b9 (Bb), pointing the way to Dm rather than sticking as close as possible to C major, which would indicate the D melodic minor scale. Just as the C# forms a leading tone up to D, the Bb leads down to A.
Charlie Parker certainly knew his harmonic and melodic minor scales, and I suspect he'd have been thinking - if not A7b9 chord tones - "harmonic minor of D", not "phrygian dominant of A".

What you don't tend to get in Charlie Parker is that distinctive augmented 2nd scale step from b6-7 (Bb-C#), which gives the scale its particular "Spanish" sound, and might explain why Mark Levine didn't consider harmonic minor was the explanation of his scale choices. (The notes chosen can be explained in other ways, if one really wants to, such as partial diminished or altered scales.)

[christianm77]

What you don't tend to get in Charlie Parker is that distinctive augmented 2nd scale step from b6-7 (Bb-C#), which gives the scale its particular "Spanish" sound, and might explain why Mark Levine didn't consider harmonic minor was the explanation of his scale choices. (The notes chosen can be explained in other ways, if one really wants to, such as partial diminished or altered scales.)

This is demonstrably untrue. Bar 28 of the melody of Donna Lee, for example.

Don't buy into the anti-harmonic minor propaganda, man ;-)

TBH I fail to see the advantage of thinking A phrygian dominant instead of D harmonic minor anyway.

[christianm77]

I'd follow that up and say that Parker seems to enjoy the augmented second specifically in that context (in a ii harmonic minor chord over VI7) - at least from the transcription I've done so far. Over a III7-vi say, I've not encountered it. So far.

Incidentally, another interesting feature of bebop if the use of two minor thirds interlinked by a semitone - for example Ab-F-E-G and all the permutations you can imagine in different contexts - suggests the first four notes of a harmonic or melodic minor scale without being specific.

Over a VI7 in C, we'd have D-F-E-C# or some variation.

This gets move around all over the place. This seems AFAIK like a specific feature of bebop melody - doesn't crop up in any of the swing era solos I've looked at least.

It's amazingly versatile.

For the next discussion - the phrase Bb-Ab-G-F-E is
1) F melodic minor resolving to the 3rd on C (so a iv-I sound)
2) Ab melodic minor resolving to the 3rd on C (so an V7b9-I sound)
3) Both
4) Who f**ing cares

:-P

[JonR]

This is demonstrably untrue. Bar 28 of the melody of Donna Lee, for example.

In the Omnibook, bar 28 is on a Bdim7 chord, and the notes are a 5-note dim7 arpeggio (B-D-F-Ab-B), followed by a leap to G and a scale run down (G-F-E).

It's possible to argue that's C a harmonic minor lick (er, except for the final E natural, which I guess you can call a chromatic passing note, as it resolves to Eb on the next Cm chord) - and I agree the augmented 2nd is there.
But equally, the simple answer - dim7 arpeggio - seems enough. IOW, there's not enough of the scale there to really confirm Parker's thinking.

However, in the very next bar (29, maybe that's the one you meant?), we have a totally unambiguous harmonic minor scale, impossible to interpret as anything else:
Eb-Db-C-Bb-A-Gb-F-Eb = Bb harmonic minor (on Cm-F7 leading into Bbm in bar 30).
There's that elusive augmented 2nd. In your face, Mark Levine!
The so-called "avoid notes" (that are supposed to be the reason that jazz players supposedly avoid using the scale) are skilfully handled by being on weak beats resolving down the half-step to a chord tone, the root in each case (Db-C, Gb-F).

Don't buy into the anti-harmonic minor propaganda, man ;-)

I don't - this is my whole point.
When I first read Levine, I took him at his word, his book seemed unassailably authoritative (all those quotes from recordings, the mind-boggling listening list), and I hadn't analysed any bop solos at that time.
But I never attached any practical importance to his book. To me it was all fascinating ideas and possibilities mostly way ahead of where I was at, none of which I managed to employ in my improvisation (which I never had any problems with before or since). It was an intellectual pastime for me, I felt no allegiance to it, and happily accepted the first criticisms I read - mainly because those critiques were much more in line with how I actually understood and played jazz already.

To be fair Levine does grudgingly accept that some players - he mentions Booker Ervin and Bud Powell - do use harmonic minor sometimes, and he quotes a couple of licks. But his dismissive opinion of the scale is plain enough from the fact that - in a 500+ page book - he spends a mere 3 pages on it (which are mostly white space), in a final chapter entitled "Odds and Ends".
Clearly that can only be down to prejudicial thinking obscuring his vision.

TBH I fail to see the advantage of thinking A phrygian dominant instead of D harmonic minor anyway.

Agreed.

[christianm77]

Completely agreed.

Here's another one - it's hardly a rare occurance - bars 9-10 of Little Willie Leaps.

The notes go:

D'-C'-B'-A-G#-B-D-F-E-C'-B'-A-G#-F-E-D-C

(In the Real Book 3 they rather hilariously write G# as Ab - more harmonic minor denial ahaha!)

I mean what the hell is that if not A harmonic minor? With the aug2 in it to add insult to injury.

Bud Powell for sure - some lovely harmonic minor runs.

The textbooks are the records. I decided to transcribe the heads (as well as solos) by ear. This is practical actually, I find this makes them easier to play, because I end up seeing and hearing patterns that I (at least) tend to miss when reading. I was surprised to see how much he used this scale, and how little it's talked about. I had no idea Mark Levine said that about it. I find it quite comical, but it's interesting the things musicians come out with sometimes.

It arises from the fact that very few musicians know every style of jazz and every recording out there. (I think :-)) Luckily we have the music itself, and it can speak for itself.

Don't get me started about 'bebop' vs trad changes for blues. (They are pretty much the same BTW. Same changes in 1923 that we play today.)