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I'm starting to learn how we can apply keychanges.
-Direct modulations.
-Pivot modulation.
-Close keychange, making the sub dominant chord the I.
Now, i still need to get more involved with this information, so here is a question for u.
The house of the rising song has this progression:
A minor ---> C major ---> D major ---> F major ---> A minor ---> E major ---> A minor ---> E major.
Now this is a A minor progression, but the E major sticks out as NOT.
How would one describe this key change?
Where did it come from?
Here is the information that i have and understand:
I= Tonic.
II= Super tonic.
III= Mediant.
IV= Sub dominant.
V= Dominant.
VI= Sub mediant.
VII= Leading tone.
Families:
- I= tonic family ---> Alternatieven: III & VI.
- IV= Subdominant family ---> II.
- V= dominant family ---> VII.
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12-16-2013 04:03 PM
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E Major is indeed the V of Am...
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It's not diatonic to A-minor, but in minor tonalities the V is made into a dominant seventh to create a stronger pull back to the tonic.
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My A minor includes E7.
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Amund, what do you mean it is diatonic to Am?
A harmonic minor = a b c d e f g#
Therefore E major is normal.
Are you thinking A Aeolian? Or maybe the descending form of A Melodic Minor? They would give abcdefg - no sharps or flats.
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When we are talking about the A minor key, do we count this way?
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
A B C D E F G
I II III IV V VI VII
Or do we still keep the numbers from a C major standpoint?
Because if that is the case, then we have a E major triad and a flattened 7 = E7? Right?
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I guess we need a digression.
When we say "C major" we all know what that means: the white notes, C D E F G A B C.
When we say "A minor" it is not so simple. As far as scales go, music theory identifies three common A minor scales:
A natural minor (A Aoelian): A B C D E F G A G F E D C B A
A harmonic minor: A B C D E F G# A G# F E D C B A
A melodic minor: A B C D E F# G# A Gnat Fnat E D C B A
In jazz we use a variation on melodic minor:
A jazz minor: A B C D E F# G# A G# F# E D C B A
That's theory. What about practice? In practice, the use of natural minor is rare, and most songs are flexible about going between harmonic and melodic minor. The jazz minor scale pops up more in improvisation.
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
I understand, so do we keep on using "the counting system" from the related major C for the A minor?
A=VI
B=VII
C=I
etc...
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I think A Aeolian when I refer to "diatonic" in this case. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
To me, harmonic minor is part of the minor sound as is melodic minor. When I play and analyze, I think of all these as a composite scale for simplicity.
But in this case the OP had a very specific question, so theoretically the diatonic V chord for A minor is Em7. But of course we all agree that in jazz we play it as a dom7 just about all the time.
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The Roman numeral system is always based on a major scale, but you get to pick what the root is.
So if you want to talk about A minor, start with A major:
I = A
II = B
III = C#
IV = D
V = E
VI = F#
VII = G#
Then alter it for A minor scales. Your House of the Rising Sun example:
A minor ---> C major ---> D major ---> F major ---> A minor ---> E major ---> A minor ---> E major.
is
Im ---> bIII ---> IV ---> bVI ---> Im ---> V ---> Im ---> V
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Aha i see...
So when i know the key is A minor, and i see a chord that isn't diatonicly correct...
Amin= A B C D E F G
Amaj= A B C# D E F# G#
I look at where the "wrong" chord takes place in the A minor scale, this would be the V.
And then i look at the major version of the key i'm in, to see that the V there is major?
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One can also modulate by sequence. Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
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Care to explain? Or where i can find this info?
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I have it in a book. There is a bit here:
http://www.musictheoryresources.com/members/FA_mod.htm
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One more question!
-I'm a bit confused with this matter:
- I= tonic family ---> Alternatieven: III & VI.
- IV= Subdominant family ---> II.
- V= dominant family ---> VII.
What i am confused about is the direction of songwriting.
I mean yes, basic pop goes from a chord of the tonic family to the subdominant family to the dominant family and then back.
Let's say in the key of C:
When we talk about pentatonic soloing over this I --> IV --> V progression.
It's gonna be C major pentatonic since it seeks resolution in the C major.
BUT!
When we turn things around, for example: V---> IV---> I---> IV.
This song is still in the key of C because it used the chords FROM the C major scale (right?).
But when applying the C major scale over this, it will sound aweful.
Whenever i play G major pentatonic on it will sound good. Same thing with G minor pentatonic (blues style).
This is because it's in mixolydian mode.
So here is where i'm stuck...
The chord progression i wrote was: V ---> IV ---> I ---> IV.
So why is it that even thou these chords COME form the C MAJOR SCALE. I can't seem to make C major work?
Are there any other ways that if we CHANGE the direction from I--->IV --->V.
Are there some rules i haven't heard of?
I mean DIRECTIONAL way's that decide where we use major and minor pentatonic.
It makes sense playing mixolydian over this, cause mixo=V.
But in pentatonics we only have MAJOR and MINOR. And the key is still C major...
Ok, if i compare the major pentatonic to the mixolydian mode, it resembles the notes IN the mixolydian mode.
So pentatonics ain't just major and minor?
Am i answering my own question? lol...
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Cool thanks for the help!
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Some thoughts on chord substitutions
The III and VI alternatives for I are used because they share notes in common
III for I. Em7 over a C bass makes Cmaj9, that's why it works.
VI for I. Am7 over a C bass makes a C6 kind of sound.
In jazz, these are used when we extend the harmony. Take a I-VI-II-V7 progression.
Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7 G7
The first thing we do is to make the VI-chord into a dominant.
Cmaj7 A7 Dm7 G7
Listen to how this creates more harmonic pull
Then we can substitute the III for the I
Em7 A7 Dm7 G7
Now we can make it into a m7b5
Em7b5 A7 Dm7 G7
Ultimately, we can make them all into dominant chords. You have this liberty when arranging solo pieces.
E7 A7 D7 G7
If you look at the progression we have now, it follows the cycle of fourths. Listen to how each chord wants to resolve to the next.
Try this process out, and you will understand why the substitutions work.
See how E7 resolves to A7? They're a fourth away. Dominant chords always resolve in fourths or in half steps. Try putting a dominant chord a fourth away or a half step above whatever the next chord is and listen to how it sounds. It won't always sound right, but try it out in different situations and you'll get the idea.
If you work with pop music, this might sound out of place. If you use these subs in a situation like that, you'll want the others to follow you harmonically.
But either way, this should help you understand how chords that seemingly don't belong happen to be used as substitutions for purely diatonic chords.Last edited by AmundLauritzen; 12-17-2013 at 08:43 AM.
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There is no reason why C major would not work over that progression while the notes from G major pentatonic would.
G Major pentatonic = G A B D E
C Major scale notes = G A B D E + C and F
So, since most of the notes are the same, I would say that the answer is that the C major scale does work over that progression, but not in the way that you are using it. In other words, just picking a scale that "works" over a chord or a progression of chords is not the end of the job. You should be thinking about the chords that you are playing and playing the notes from the scale that actually work best with those chords and not just playing random notes from a scale that you believe to be the "right" one to use.
When you are thinking C scale, you are probably playing a lot of Cs. The C is a note to be careful with over a G chord because the G chord has a B in it which is only a half step away from C and therefore very dissonant. So, although you might want to play a C or two over the G major, you are probably not going to want to play a lot of Cs over that chord. When you play the G pentatonic scale over that chord, there is no C in that scale so you don't have to think about it.
So play a C scale over that progression but focus your attention on the notes from the scale that appear in the chord that is being played at the time and you will find that it sounds much better.
Just because theory tells you that a certain scale works over a certain chord, doesn't mean you can play any note from that scale without thinking about the chord.
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The last 2 post where very informative! Thanks u guys!
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Just two more things i don't understand...
I get the "substitution" part, III for and IVI for I.
These chord still hold all the notes in de the C major scale.
But then u speak of...
"The first thing we do is to make the VI-chord into a dominant."
Why the VI??? Is this a keychange to D major? Since A7 lays in that key?
Because the note C# of A7 does NOT lay in the C major scale.
I mean a substitude for a I chord is A min7 or Emin7.
After that u make it into a Em7b5. Witch is a keychange as well since there is no Bb. right?
Em7b5 A7 Dm7 G7
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Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
- You need to let go of the notion of "diatonically correct" because it's ... um ... incorrect. If "diatonically correct" means A natural minor, no one plays natural minor. It's just a theoretical notion.
- Most of the time, the dominant seventh (E7) is the right chord. Em7 would sound wrong. And the E7 here doesn't sound like you are borrowing it from A major because you often play minor sounds over it like Fnat. My A minor include E7.
- The way to approach minor keys is to be flexible. The 6th and 7th notes can be F, G or F#, G#. Minor tonalities are inherantly more flexible in this regard in music in general, and jazz is no exception.
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So what do you say All Along the Watchtower is in? Aeolian mode? Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Can i make the following statement?:
- A blues progression in the key of C has these chords: I7 ---> IV7 ---> V7.
-The only chord that is "diatonically correct" is V7.
-The I7 comes from F major.
-The IV7 comes from Bb major.
As so, the blues is nothing more than a keysnatching thief!
Right?
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More to the point, BDLH, there are plenty of tunes that have a section in natural minor complete with a minor v chord for the first part, then go to the relative major. E.g., Little Wing. You don't want the V chord because you aren't going back to i.
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I like your style SJ, but the blues has its own history and peculiarities and I don't think anybody views those as key changes. Originally Posted by shreddingjoris
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