F7#9/e9

[ba7159]

The blues progression. Does this fall in a scale jazz minor, harmonic minor should diminished be applied? How can you approach this progression?

Chord progression should be

F9/E7#9 don't have a guitar in front of me.

[mr. beaumont]

How fast does it blow by?

Be tempted to do an E Altered idea over the whole thing if it was fast...

I like thinking about chords, so my pet idea over the E7#9 is often visualizing a Bb 13b9 chord...

[cosmic gumbo]

How is this a blues progression?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Please be clearer.

[mr. beaumont]

Y'know, in like a minor blues in A where you play the #5 (in this case 9) before the 5...

I have a hunch this is related to the Neil Young song thread.

[JonR]

The blues progression. Does this fall in a scale jazz minor, harmonic minor should diminished be applied? How can you approach this progression?

Chord progression should be

F9/E7#9 don't have a guitar in front of me.

Your title says F7#9 - E9, while your post says F9 - E7#9. Which is it? (the 2nd one is probably more common)

[ba7159]

Obviously the second. I was going by ear and didn't have a guitar.


It's a minor blues and that's why I heard that.

Somewhere I have all chords occurring in the jazz minor/harmonic minor scales. I know there are half step dominants somewhere I just don't have the extensions memorized up to 13 like diatonic harmony.

[ba7159]

This isn't what I was looking for but I guess one approach would be the harmonic minor scale.

A (MAJ7) chord can be
-I chord of Major
-IV chord of Major
-bVI chord of harmonic minor


A (7) chord can be
-V chord of Major
-V chord of harmonic minor #9
-V chord of melodic minor -
-IV chord of harmonic minor


A (min7b5) chord can be
-vii chord of major
-ii chord of harmonic minor
-vi chord of melodic minor
-vii chord of melodic minor


A (MAJ7#5) chord can be
-bIII chord of melodic minor
-bIII chord of harmonic minor


A (minMAJ7) chord can be
-i chord of harmonic
-i chord of melodic


A (diminished 7) chord can be
-vii chord of harmonic minor


A (7alt) chord is
-VII chord of melodic minor

So a target note would be the b6 in the harmonic minor scale I guess.

[JonR]

That's all pretty much correct, tho I'm not sure what your last sentence means.
b6 in A harmonic minor is F, which will fit both an F and E7b9, if that's what you're thinking. But there would be other good target notes. A harmonic minor would fit both chords - but it wouldn't fit F7 or F9, or E7#9. Neil Young doesn't use those jazz chords, of course - just F and E (maybe E7), so harmonic minor is fine in the case of that song.

"Harmonic minor #9" is not a scale I've come across, and I think maybe you mean 5th mode with a #9. Eg (from A minor): E F G G# A B C D. That would go with an E7#9 chord. (I've not heard of it as a jazz scale before, but it works as phrygian dominant with a #2/b3 approach note.)

I'm personally a little uncomfortable with saying "a (7alt) chord is VII chord of melodic minor". If we're using standard tertian principles, the vii chord in melodic minor is a half-dim (as you say earlier). 7th mode of melodic minor does fit a 7alt chord, of course, but that doesn't mean the chord functions as a VII. It functions as a V.
Eg, the F melodic minor scale fits an E7(alt) chord, but that chord is V in A minor, not VII in F minor.

Again, this is just me being pedantic with terminology . I guess you understand the applications, but others might get confused.

[Guitarzen]

The F9 is a tritone sub for the E7, just think of the F9 as a B7alt, I.e. you probably want to go back and forth between the E alt scale and the B alt scale. There are other possibilities but that is the most obvious one.

[JonR]

The F9 is a tritone sub for the E7

Pedantic clarification: you mean tritone sub for the dominant of E7...

, just think of the F9 as a B7alt,

Exactly.

[ba7159]

Harmonic minor #9" is not a scale I've come across, and I think maybe you mean 5th mode with a #9. Eg (from A minor): E F G G# A B C D. That would go with an E7#9 chord. (I've not heard of it as a jazz scale before, but it works as phrygian dominant with a #2/b3 approach note.)

The title of that text document was chords occurring. For some reason I only wrote that extension out.

I have a text document will all chords stacked to the 13 in all scales except the actual melodic minor (the one that changes descending). I can't find it.

The whole purpose of that text document was chords occurring in scales, the function would vary by song. Especially in jazz where things don't have to follow the rules.

The F9 is a tritone sub for the E7, just think of the F9 as a B7alt, I.e. you probably want to go back and forth between the E alt scale and the B alt scale. There are other possibilities but that is the most obvious one.

thanks man

edit: it was so I could visualize what chords fall in what scales

[JonR]

The title of that text document was chords occurring. For some reason I only wrote that extension out.

I have a text document will all chords stacked to the 13 in all scales except the actual melodic minor (the one that changes descending). I can't find it.

Descending melodic minor is same as natural minor.
In jazz, melodic minor (as improv scale) is same in both directions anyway. So you only need one set of chords for melodic minor.

The important chords from melodic minor (for jazz) are:
i (tonic) = m(maj7), m6, m6/9, m(add9), m(maj9)
IV (lydian dominant, used as bII in major or minor keys, and bVII in major) = 7#11, 9#11, 13#11
VII - or rather, the altered dom7 chord you can build from VII = 7b9b5, 7#9#5, 7b9#5, 7#9b5 (used as V, most often in minor keys).

The vim7b5 is also interesting because it has a major 9th, unlike the vii in major and ii in (natural or harmonic) minor.

As bII, lydian dominant is the tritone sub for the V7alt scale. Eg, B7alt and F13#11 will both resolve to Em (or Emaj), and both take the C melodic minor scale.

The whole purpose of that text document was chords occurring in scales, the function would vary by song. Especially in jazz where things don't have to follow the rules.

Well, jazz harmony may not follow all the classical rules, but it does follow its own rules.

[Boston Joe]

I'm personally a little uncomfortable with saying "a (7alt) chord is VII chord of melodic minor". If we're using standard tertian principles, the vii chord in melodic minor is a half-dim (as you say earlier). 7th mode of melodic minor does fit a 7alt chord, of course, but that doesn't mean the chord functions as a VII. It functions as a V.
Eg, the F melodic minor scale fits an E7(alt) chord, but that chord is V in A minor, not VII in F minor.

An old teacher of mine used to call it "faux harmony" because you're not using tertian principles there. You're picking and choosing the notes from the mode that spell the chord you want.

[JonR]

An old teacher of mine used to call it "faux harmony" because you're not using tertian principles there. You're picking and choosing the notes from the mode that spell the chord you want.

Right!
In this case, we're just altering the 5th and 9th of a V7 chord - or accommodating a bII tritone sub within the key scale as far as possible - and noticing that the resulting pitch collection happens to coincide with a particular melodic minor scale.
Neither the V7alt chord, nor the lydian dominant bII, actually derive from that melodic minor scale, which has nothing to do with the key in question. The melodic minor coincidence is just a handy memory aid - assuming we know our melodic minor scales .

[Boston Joe]

Neither the V7alt chord, nor the lydian dominant bII, actually derive from that melodic minor scale, which has nothing to do with the key in question.

Right. They're not really melodic minor sounds, they're altered major sounds. That said, in terms of actually learning them, I think you go ahead and learn them as melodic minor modes because it's an organizing principle that's easy to get your head around.

[JonR]

Right. They're not really melodic minor sounds, they're altered major sounds. That said, in terms of actually learning them, I think you go ahead and learn them as melodic minor modes because it's an organizing principle that's easy to get your head around.

Indeed - but only if you know your melodic minor modes better than you know your principles of harmony and voice-leading .
Personally, I never got the altered scale - couldn't incorporate it in my playing - until I realised how it worked as a set of chromatic leading tones. As a chord-scale (7th mode melodic minor) it didn't make much sense - other than as something to noodle with.
One needs to understand the purpose of an altered dominant chord (and a lydian dominant) sooner or later, before one can use the scale musically.

[Boston Joe]

Indeed - but only if you know your melodic minor modes better than you know your principles of harmony and voice-leading .
Personally, I never got the altered scale - couldn't incorporate it in my playing - until I realised how it worked as a set of chromatic leading tones. As a chord-scale (7th mode melodic minor) it didn't make much sense - other than as something to noodle with.
One needs to understand the purpose of an altered dominant chord (and a lydian dominant) sooner or later, before one can use the scale musically.

Well that's one way of looking at it. My own approach tends to split the difference between that and a more George Russell type approach of seeing the notes in relation to the chord of the moment, not how it's getting to the next chord.

[JonR]

Well that's one way of looking at it. My own approach tends to split the difference between that and a more George Russell type approach of seeing the notes in relation to the chord of the moment, not how it's getting to the next chord.

For me it depends on the type of music.
With modal harmony it's usually the former, but can be both. (Modal - non-functional - harmony doesn't usually require voice-leading connections, but I often like to make them if I can.)
With functional harmony, chord-to-chord relationships and voice moves are what matters, although it can depend on rate of chord change.
Certainly for things like altered dominants, the relation to the following chord is the whole point. The tensions created are designed to resolve in particular ways to the next chord. And the chords rarely last long enough to be considered in isolation anyway.
With lydian dominants as bII chords, the same applies. But when they are bVIIs (or maybe IVs) it's a little different and vertical relationships on the chord itself might be of more interest.
That's how I see it anyway .