Neil Young Revolution Blues

[ba7159]

So the whole thing is modal in C major except for the F to E that both contain no 7th.

Where do these fit harmonically?

[ba7159]

Correction the E contains a 7 it is a dominant 7th chord.

So where do we find a major chord a half step above a dominant seventh chord?

[JonR]

So where do we find a major chord a half step above a dominant seventh chord?

In the minor key. A minor in this case. A minor has F as VI (bVI if you prefer), and E major as V. Think harmonic minor .

The song is in A minor, not C major. The chords are Am, F, E(7) and Dm - the standard set for the key of A minor.
It's based on a normal minor blues sequence, but extended with an extra line.

[ba7159]

Thanks man

[ba7159]

It's kind of minor blues because you have that dorian note that moves down to b6 relative to root over the iv.

But it feels modal and it definitely seems like the f (r35 not f MAJ 7) to E7 belongs to some scale or key but I am thinking differently than you are.

Relative to a minor (a minor blues) you could hit that g#. I guess that would be a guide tone from g to root of a minor.

I need to get a loop pedal. Thanks for how you look at this.

[ba7159]

I am academized and this was what I wrote out to try to figure out exactly what fits. A light bulb will probably go off when I play over the changes. I feel like there's a scale or two there.

edit: the E that says no 7th is actually a dominant seventh

[JonR]

IMO, you don't seem to have been very well "academized" . In particular, your understanding of key theory (tonality, functional harmony) seems lacking.
1. This tune is definitely not "in C major". It's "in A minor". Important difference. (Pretty basic academic theory .)
2. I don't think modal terms are relevant or helpful. It's a minor key song, not a modal song.

Going with the modal idea for the sake of argument, I don't hear any dorian implications in the A minor sections. It's true there's not much aeolian hint either (no F or F#), but really it's a standard "A minor blues": mostly minor pent, but hints of the 2nd/9th here and there.
When I play A dorian over it, it doesn't sound right to me. It's introducing a chromatic note for no good reason (IMO). (To be fair, I haven't listened to the entire tune: if you can point to a place where an F# is clearly used, please do.)

Meanwhile, while the modes on Dm and F are dorian and lydian in isolation, they're not in isolation here. The Dm chord is not a tonal centre; it's the iv in the established key (Am). IOW, "iv in A aeolian", not "i in D dorian". Of course the pitch collection is the same, but this is an important point about the key centre (A) over-ruling the chord root (D); that's how tonality works. Likewise, the F is not really "lydian", it's "VI in A aeolian".
The E is then the standard (classical/conventional) minor key V ("dominant", with or without the 7th), implying harmonic minor.

Modal interpretations would be valid if the pitch collections were clearly changing from chord to chord. But with the (traditional) exception of the E major, this is not happening here. (And of course the E major is classic minor key tonality, the dominant chord employing the leading tone - G# - to resolve back to A.)

BTW, in a minor key blues, it's fairly common in jazz to substitute the VI chord for the iv (F instead of Dm). Neil Young is using both here, of course.

[ba7159]

If you're going to be a dick a fmaj7 is a dmin9 if you don't hear the dorian - aeolian your ear blows. of course blues scale applies and the root note is a but when i map it out i do it all by major scales because of the caged system, then into arpeggios if necessary

[ba7159]

If the f chord contains a major seventh then it is explicit lydian harmony in the key of a minor c major what have you

edit: we can argue by what note the bass player is playing....

[JonR]

If you're going to be a dick

I'm trying to be helpful. No offence intended. You've picked up some incorrect information, that's all.

a fmaj7 is a dmin9 if you don't hear the dorian - aeolian your ear blows.

Sorry, don't follow...

of course blues scale applies and the root note is a but when i map it out i do it all by major scales because of the caged system, then into arpeggios if necessary

Yes that's OK, I was only offering theoretical (descriptive information).

You can choose to interpret this tune modally if you wish, but I think it makes it too complicated.

[JonR]

If the f chord contains a major seventh then it is explicit lydian harmony in the key of a minor c major what have you

The maj7 has nothing to do with it.
The C major scale sounds lydian if you play it over an F bass (F tonal centre), and the "lydian effect" is down to the #4 (B).

You can certainly describe the sound of the F chord in this key as "lydian", but I don't see how it helps you.

edit: we can argue by what note the bass player is playing....

Why would we do that?

[ba7159]

I'm trying to be helpful. No offence intended. You've picked up some incorrect information, that's all.
Sorry, don't follow...
Yes that's OK, I was only offering theoretical (descriptive information).

You can choose to interpret this tune modally if you wish, but I think it makes it too complicated.

It's a minor blues. Which by its nature is modal. The chords are held for a long enough duration for a modal approach.

BTW if you play a maj 7 chord with the root up a minor third it's a min 9. Works well with drop-2 voicing.

I may have mistyped but I have a strong theoretical background.

[ba7159]

The maj7 has nothing to do with it.
The C major scale sounds lydian if you play it over an F bass (F tonal centre), and the "lydian effect" is down to the #4 (B).

Because it is in the key of C major / A natural minor the F is your IV chord.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. #4 in C would be F#. That wouldn't be lydian at all. B is the leading tone. Not # 4 of either of the chords you've mention.

[ba7159]

I completed four semesters of music theory at The University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa.

We have a very strong theory department and I worked my ass off to get through that sequence.

You can edit your post to IMO but you pissed me off.

[mr. beaumont]

This thread is kinda weird.

Song is very obviously in A minor.

Think lydian on the F if you like.

The E7 is the V...harmonic minor. That's what harmonic minor is, a minor scale used for harmony.


This is a really simple tune...Op, are you planning on playing it in a jazz context?

[JonR]

Because it is in the key of C major / A natural minor the F is your IV chord.

F is IV in C major. It's VI in A minor. The scale is the same, but they are two different keys.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. #4 in C would be F#. That wouldn't be lydian at all.

Well, an F# note would be lydian in relation to C! - but no, you misunderstood what I was saying...

B is the leading tone. Not # 4 of either of the chords you've mention.

B is the #4 of F - that's what I meant. It's what will make the F chord sound lydian. (I actually didn't mention any chord, but I did clearly say an "F bass" - you don't need a chord to get a modal sound; only a scale and a bass note.)

Sorry, I'm sure you know all this, just trying to clarify the confusion.

The maj7 of F (E) is shared by ionian and lydian modes; it needs the B (in scale if not in chord) to be identified as lydian. Of course, in the keys of C or A minor, the B is present anyway, so the F chord will (arguably) sound lydian for as long as it lasts, at least if we use the whole scale on it. It's just that describing it as lydian doesn't really tell us anything. We could stress the B note over the chord if we wanted to highlight that #4, but the chord is still working as VI in A minor - or IV if in C major. We're not changing the scale, and the tonal centre remains - in this case - as A.

[JonR]

It's a minor blues. Which by its nature is modal.

Ah, I agree with you there (it sometimes is anyway).
But when blues is modal, that means one mode: the mode of the tonic. It has elements of modal interchange - parallel modes - but it doesn't change modal root. IOW, in A minor, it might well go from A dorian to A aeolian (on the Dm), because the strength of the keynote can override the chord change. In this case, as I said, I don't hear any dorian effect on the Am. As Jeff says, it's just a plain A minor key tune.

The chords are held for a long enough duration for a modal approach.

Arguably, yes. Again I agree with Jeff: "think lydian on the F if you like". What difference do you think it makes? (I mean different from thinking "A minor"?)

BTW if you play a maj 7 chord with the root up a minor third it's a min 9.

Sorry I don't follow. If you mean an Fmaj7 is equivalent to Dm9, yes. Not sure how that relates to what we're talking about.

Works well with drop-2 voicing.

No doubt. Again, that's a different issue.

I may have mistyped but I have a strong theoretical background.

Maybe not mistyping, maybe just using terms in different senses. A lot music theory terms have 2 or 3 usages in different contexts. Results in a lot of wasted typing on theory forums! Sorry if I'm not being clear enough either...

[ba7159]

F is IV in C major. It's VI in A minor. The scale is the same, but they are two different keys.

A natural minor and C Major are the same. I often practice scales beginning on the root going all the way up all the way down back to root. But the shapes are the same. As long as you don't raise the seventh it is the same scale.

Modality/tonality is determined by the chords you are playing over. The scales are the same. So when I refer to scales I don't really think it matters.

The maj7 of F (E) is shared by ionian and lydian modes; it needs the B (in scale if not in chord) to be identified as lydian. Of course, in the keys of C or A minor, the B is present anyway, so the F chord will (arguably) sound lydian for as long as it lasts, at least if we use the whole scale on it. It's just that describing it as lydian doesn't really tell us anything. We could stress the B note over the chord if we wanted to highlight that #4, but the chord is still working as VI in A minor - or IV if in C major. We're not changing the scale, and the tonal centre remains - in this case - as A.

That doesn't really apply. Sometimes the chord is F maj 7 sometimes it is d min 9. When it is f MAJ 7 it is explicitly lydian. Of course you can throw a #4 and imply lydian, especially over vamps where the modality isn't explicitly established.

But when blues is modal, that means one mode: the mode of the tonic. It has elements of modal interchange - parallel modes - but it doesn't change modal root. IOW, in A minor, it might well go from A dorian to A aeolian (on the Dm), because the strength of the keynote can override the chord change. In this case, as I said, I don't hear any dorian effect on the Am. As Jeff says, it's just a plain A minor key tune.

As a general rule, yes but it depends on the blues. I haven't played over this with a guitar but I would be surprised if it were aeolian (natural minor). It certainly isn't phrygian. It probably is Dorian unless you want to be obnoxious.

Yea I may want to play this as a jazz tune. Or play rock style but imply jazz harmonies. That was kind of the point of the thread. The harmonies implied will go to the Dominant Sevenths a half step apart - but that is another thread.

[ba7159]

Of course it's Dorian it's C major with A as the 2 key.

The e7 is because it's a blues V7/ii (or technically i of the kind of blues progression)

[fumblefingers]

A natural minor and C Major are the same. I often practice scales beginning on the root going all the way up all the way down back to root. But the shapes are the same. As long as you don't raise the seventh it is the same scale.

Modality/tonality is determined by the chords you are playing over. The scales are the same. So when I refer to scales I don't really think it matters.

That doesn't really apply. Sometimes the chord is F maj 7 sometimes it is d min 9. When it is f MAJ 7 it is explicitly lydian. Of course you can throw a #4 and imply lydian, especially over vamps where the modality isn't explicitly established.



As a general rule, yes but it depends on the blues. I haven't played over this with a guitar but I would be surprised if it were aeolian (natural minor). It certainly isn't phrygian. It probably is Dorian unless you want to be obnoxious.

Yea I may want to play this as a jazz tune. Or play rock style but imply jazz harmonies. That was kind of the point of the thread. The harmonies implied will go to the Dominant Sevenths a half step apart - but that is another thread.[/INDENT]

[/COLOR]

yes, you do know theory - but its a little bit shaky.

for example, the keys of A Minor and C Major certainly have the same notes literally, but they are not "the same" theoretically. the scales aren't the same either, at least not theoretically. they have the same notes but if they start and end in different places they are not considered "same". they imply different keys or modes by virtue of where they start and end.

another one - tonality/modality is determined by "the chords you are playing over" do you simply mean "by the chords"?

again, that's basically true, but maybe not that simple. it depends on form, phrases, cadences, endings etc. in other words not by the fact that the chords simply exist, but by how they are used compositionally. for example, a relative minor key might have common chords with its relative major, but we are still able to definitively declare the key of a piece, section, phrase, or cadence, etc.

how do you explain that?

[JonR]

A natural minor and C Major are the same. I often practice scales beginning on the root going all the way up all the way down back to root. But the shapes are the same. As long as you don't raise the seventh it is the same scale.

Yes, but not the same key.

As a general rule, yes but it depends on the blues. I haven't played over this with a guitar but I would be surprised if it were aeolian (natural minor). It certainly isn't phrygian. It probably is Dorian unless you want to be obnoxious.

Well I hope I'm not being obnoxious if ask on on what basis you say it "probably" is dorian?
You admit you haven't played over it, so what rule are you referring to? The jazz one that says a min7 vamp is "probably dorian"? But that rule depends on context. Firstly, this is not a jazz tune, and secondly it's a traditional minor key sequence, meaning the "probable" scale on the tonic chord is aeolian. The additional blues influence in the tune means the actual scale used is mostly minor pentatonic, with an occasional 2nd.
Seeing as I have played over it to check, an aeolian F sounds - to my ears - more in keeping than a dorian F#. YMMV, but you need to try it and see. (And there's no rule that says you can't make it dorian if you want .)

Yea I may want to play this as a jazz tune. Or play rock style but imply jazz harmonies. That was kind of the point of the thread.

OK! (This is a jazz site after all .) You can certainly go with dorian on the Am in that case, if you like the sound.

IOW, there is an important distinction here between what the original track IS (how we analyse or define it) and possible ways in which we might adapt or arrange it to play it ourselves. What it is is quite clear (conventional, non-modal minor key). But that doesn't govern in any way what a jazz musician might decide to do with it.

[JonR]

Oops, I'm probably going to come across as obnoxious again...

Of course it's Dorian it's C major with A as the 2 key.

That makes no sense. Typo?

The e7 is because it's a blues V7/ii (or technically i of the kind of blues progression)

Again, only slight less meaningless.
The E7 in this tune is the primary dominant (V of Am, the tonic), not a secondary dominant. (Maybe that's what you mean by "technically i of the kind of blues progression". You make it sound as if "technically" is somehow a wrong way of looking at it.)
For E7 to be V7/ii, the key would need to be G major.
If you regard the key as C major, then E7 is V/vi.

OK, I may just be picking up on typos here, but this is intended as friendly criticism. As you suggested before, you're "mistyping" - you should proof-read your posts before uploading them, because we can't tell what's a typo and what's a theoretical mistake.

[manleyman123]

I never thought a Neil Young tune could be so complicated...

[fumblefingers]

Hello cowgirl in the mud?

[manleyman123]

were we talking about cowgirl in the sand?

or revolution blues?

which is clearly not as complicated as this thread makes it out to be.