The 11th in Chords

[cnsky54]

Hello! I'm working on my arpeggios up and down the neck while reviewing chord theory, and have a small roadblock you might be able to steer me around.

I'm puzzled by something I am reading in theory books and sites. More than once I have read that when building a chord with an 11th in a Major scale I am told to sharpen the 11th to avoid close dissonance with the 3rd. But if I do that, doesn't the #11th conflict with the 5th in the same way? Do I leave out 5ths or 3rds for an ambiguous sound?

In minor scales, my reading says to leave the 11th natural, not adjust it.

So, where did the idea come from to sharpen the 11th in a major setting? Am I just throwing in a tritone for the interesting sound of it? And I notice that doing a fast arp using every one of the notes up to an 11th gets cumbersome sometimes. Should I be paring out unneeded notes so it doesn't sound too clustered and dense? Third, fifth, maybe the ninth gone? Should I memorize the complete arp and then experiment with using smaller fragments? Help!

[Vladan]

From what I read, in Jazz, 5th is the least important one. Unfortunately, it's not so in R'nR.

[GuyBoden]

If you're new to jazz guitar, I'd learn the shell chords first, before extended chords like the 11th, with shell chord voicings you will be able to play nearly every Jazz standard.

All the information you need is on this JazzGuitar.be site:

Here's the shell chords:
Shell Jazz Guitar Chords (For Beginners)


Here's the arps:
Jazz Guitar Arpeggios - The Best Beginner's Guide | Jazz Guitar Online

[cnsky54]

Thanks for the suggestions! Not quite new though, been playing for a lot of years and for an equal amount of time have been puzzled by some of the theory. This stumped me a bit, and I wondered if it was something that came up infrequently or in a mode of HM or MM. I'm one of the detail people who wants to dig into the 'why' of things instead of just playing it.

[jtizzle]

I don't think I've ever run into a situation where I need to use a completely extended arpeggio, so I don't really practice it. When working with arpeggios, I do them 3 ways. I run it to the 7th, then all the way up to the 9th (1-3-5-7-9), and then I do upper structure triads (7-9-11 and/or 9-11-13).

If you do it this way, the 11th won't be a clash. But the biggest reason it's a clash is because of the 7th. When you play a CMaj7 and throw in an F, it creates the tritone between F and B, which sounds kind of like if you were playing a G7 or Db7 chord. Although it tends to be explained in a bad way, the common thing is to raise the 11th and make it lydian, although when you do that, it changes the sound that the song might want you to imply. There is always room for the natural 11th in a major chord, you just have to know how to use it, and don't totally rely on making it #11 to get through it.

[GuyBoden]

So, where did the idea come from to sharpen the 11th in a major setting

If you want history, "The Lydian Chromatic Concept" had a big influence on using the #11 Lydian sound as the tonal center.

[jsaras]

There is a significant difference between the E to F clash (a b9 interval) and the G to F# dissonance (a major 7th interval).

The b9 interval breaks the overtone series and it's an unacceptable dissonance in tonal harmony UNLESS it has a -7 underneath it, which results in a 7b9 chord.

The natural 11th is an acceptable second octave extension on a major chord if the third is left out, so the tones over the C root would be G B D F. It's not a common chord, but it is perfectly acceptable and consonant vertical structure.

[JonR]

Hello! I'm working on my arpeggios up and down the neck while reviewing chord theory, and have a small roadblock you might be able to steer me around.

I'm puzzled by something I am reading in theory books and sites. More than once I have read that when building a chord with an 11th in a Major scale I am told to sharpen the 11th to avoid close dissonance with the 3rd. But if I do that, doesn't the #11th conflict with the 5th in the same way? Do I leave out 5ths or 3rds for an ambiguous sound?

In minor scales, my reading says to leave the 11th natural, not adjust it.

So, where did the idea come from to sharpen the 11th in a major setting? Am I just throwing in a tritone for the interesting sound of it? And I notice that doing a fast arp using every one of the notes up to an 11th gets cumbersome sometimes. Should I be paring out unneeded notes so it doesn't sound too clustered and dense? Third, fifth, maybe the ninth gone? Should I memorize the complete arp and then experiment with using smaller fragments? Help!

Just to repeat some of the above points and expand on them...

The main issue is as jsaras says: voicing a perfect 11th above a major 3rd creates a minor 9th (b9) interval, which is just about the worst sounding dissonance there is, with no familiar resolution. It's where the "avoid note" concept comes from. Ie, it's not an avoid note, it's an avoid interval.

This is also why we don't use b13ths (eg a C on an Em7 chord), because it creates a b9 with the 5th below; and also why we don't voice the root of a maj7 too high in the chord, if it creates a b9 with a maj7 lower down.

IOW, in general beware of any note which is a half-step above a chord tone, or a chord extension. The half-step may not be an issue - a Cmaj7 close-voiced G-B-C-E sounds fine - it's when the C is an octave higher that it sounds bad.

But invert the b9 interval and it becomes a maj7 - still dissonant (in a classical sense at least), but a much friendlier dissonance, and usually softened by intervening chord tones. So a Cmaj7 voiced C-E-G-B sounds - obviously - fine.
And we could, likewise, voice an 11 (or b13) chord with the 3rd (or 5th) above the 11 (or b13). But then the chord starts to sound like other chords.
Eg, if we take an Em7 and add a C, moving the B up the octave to form a maj7 above C, we have E-G-C-D-B - which is a Cmaj9 chord in 1st inversion. At least, it's an ambiguous chord.

As jsaras also points out, the exception to the b9 rule is in a 7b9 chord. In that case (IMO), it's not just the b7 below that makes it OK, but the other chord tones too (aside from the root). 3-5-b7-b9 form a dim7 chord, which is the leading tone chord (viidim) in a minor key. That's a good strong chord with a clear function: resolution to the tonic. Adding the V note as root just enhances that function, and lets the ear forgive the root-b9 dissonance. (There's also a proper resolution of the interval: the b9 goes down a half-step to the 5th of the tonic, while the root of V7 drops or rises to the root of the tonic.)

Adding an 11th to a maj7 chord creates an additional issue, as it forms a tritone with the maj7. So the chord C-E-G-B-D-F, as well as having a "nasty" b9 between E and F, has a tritone between B and F. Tritones are not bad things! But they belong in dominant function chords. Sticking one in a tonic C chord means we have two opposite functions fighting it out in the same chord (it's a G7 stacked on top of a C triad). So it's a harmonic mess.

On minor chords, the 11th is not an issue, because the interval with the 3rd is a benign major 9th. (But you still wouldn't add one if the minor chord had a major 7th, because of that tritone issue. )

However - as you point out - raising the 11th on a major chord does create a potential dissonance with the 5th, as well as a tritone with the root. The dissonance with the 5th is rarely a problem, because the #11 is usually voiced above the 5th, creating a maj7. The tritone with the root might matter more, but again it's usually softened by intervening chord tones. Eg, the #11 makes strong consonant intervals with the 9th and maj7 of the chord (creating a minor triad).
You can always leave the 5th out of a #11 chord (many do), although it can - IMO - compromise the stability of the chord. (Generally in jazz, omitting the 5th is done because it's assumed the bass will usually play it.)

Of course we can add a perfect 11th to a major chord if we omit the 3rd - thereby "avoiding the avoid interval", and creating a sus4. Because of the tritone issue on maj7 chords, this would only be done on triads, or (more likely in jazz) chords with a b7; meaning V7, ii7, iii7, vi7. All those can become 7sus4 chords, although it's more common to assume a 7sus4 is a dom7 variant (ie the missing 3rd is presumed to be major); that's because there is no need to omit the 3rd from a m11 chord, it doesn't clash with the 11.

And with 7sus4 chords (according to Mark Levine anyway ) we can still add the 3rd back in if we want, as long as it's voiced above the 11th - so creating a maj7 rather than a b9. It's still considered a "sus" chord, because the overall sound is governed by the lower chord tones (1-4-5-b7, in whatever order), and the 3rd on top is a mere embellishment.

These common practices mean that if you ever see a plain "11" chord symbol, always assume it means a 7sus4 or 9sus4. Don't include the 3rd of the chord, unless you really want to (or can) add it on top, above the 4th. But generally we can use "11" as a shorthand for 9sus4 simply because a true theoretical 11th chord (1-3-5-b7-9-11) doesn't exist in practice.

[jsaras]

Well said, though I disagree with your assessment that the tritone interval is reserved for functional dominant chords. Ami6 is a vertical structure with a tritone in it and it's not a dominant 7th chord.

However, it is accurate to say that if you encounter a tritone interval in a vertical structure you can eliminate both of those notes as possible roots.

Dominant 7th chords do not need to have a function, but that's another story for another day.

[HamrockGuitar]

The 11th is considered an "avoid note" because it is a half step up from a chord tone (the 3rd) where as the #11 acts like more of a leading tone to the 5th. That's why you see a lot of Maj7(#11)'s or Dom7(#11)'s but then min11's.

[JonR]

Well said, though I disagree with your assessment that the tritone interval is reserved for functional dominant chords. Ami6 is a vertical structure with a tritone in it and it's not a dominant 7th chord.

Quite right, good call.
The other example is a maj7#11 chord, where there's a tritone (or tritone and octave) between root and #11.

I should perhaps have kept it to the mix of I and V7 chord that a tonic maj11 creates. The tritone is kind of a red herring. But C E G B D F sounds like G7 on top of C, which is enough to make a harmonic mess.

However, it is accurate to say that if you encounter a tritone interval in a vertical structure you can eliminate both of those notes as possible roots.

m7b5 and dim7?
(If you mean acoustic root I agree. m7b5 could be seen as an inverted m6 in that respect.)

Dominant 7th chords do not need to have a function, but that's another story for another day.

Quite.

[bako]

G7 over C is not a harmonic mess. If that were so it is unlikely that it would become the common sound it is.

There are note combinations in a key that bring in aspects of I major, IV major, V7, etc.
The introduction of the F note strongly pulls in the influence of either subdominant or dominant.
It most often functions as a passing suspension. F/C and G7/C are 2 expansions of the suspension.
It is a completely useable event, nothing messy about it. Pedals on both I and V with passing chords are very common.

[jsaras]

This is a short chord sequence that uses natural 11th chords exclusively (5-7-9-11). I think it would sound great in a Yellowjackets-ish context.

SCORE:
http://www.audiorecordingandservices...enthChords.png

AUDIO:
http://www.audiorecordingandservices...enthChords.mp3

[JonR]

G7 over C is not a harmonic mess. If that were so it is unlikely that it would become the common sound it is.

It's a common sound? That's news to me, although I probably am somewhat out of date with contemporary jazz. Could you give some examples?

There are note combinations in a key that bring in aspects of I major, IV major, V7, etc.
The introduction of the F note strongly pulls in the influence of either subdominant or dominant.
It most often functions as a passing suspension. F/C and G7/C are 2 expansions of the suspension.
It is a completely useable event, nothing messy about it. Pedals on both I and V with passing chords are very common.

Yes, I understand all that, but I was talking about the specific sound of C E G B (D) F as a harmonic unit, and the problem with the F against the E below, as well as the (maybe less problematic) tritone B-F.
Yes, I'm sure it could be used as a passing dissonance, a kind of suspension. My point was simply that the 11th is not a consonant extension on the chord (unlike the 9th and 13th), and that's down to the 3rd and 7th below. It's a point about basic harmony, rather than the advanced kind that might use such note combinations as passing dissonances.
I didn't mean to suggest that such a sound could never be used.
(But I'd still like to know some concrete examples, either in scores or recordings.)

[JonR]

This is a short chord sequence that uses natural 11th chords exclusively (5-7-9-11). I think it would sound great in a Yellowjackets-ish context.

SCORE:
http://www.audiorecordingandservices...enthChords.png

AUDIO:
http://www.audiorecordingandservices...enthChords.mp3

But those all lack the major 3rd, which makes quite a bit of difference.
It's true they contain the major 7th (unlike a traditional 9sus4), which illustrates - perhaps - that the tritone is not a major issue.
They still sound dissonant, but quite usable. But then not as tonics in the key of the root note, which an essential basic point. They're V7 chords on a tonic pedal (and I'm pretty sure I've seen that in Bach...).

[bako]

When I am talking about a common sound, I am talking about G7/C which is a V7 over the tonic.
The common motion is I V7 I over a tonic pedal which I think of as an expansion of I Isus I.
The other common expansion of I Isus I is I IV/I I.

Starting with the simple sound, I Isus I is all over the rock opera by the Who "Tommy"

I first consciously encountered I V7/I I analyzing passages from Mozart in college.
In jazz, 1st musician to come to mind is McCoy Tyner who used pedals extensively at times.

If your point is specifically about the b9 interval (E-F), then I agree that is less common.
I remember b9's occasionally cropping up in in some of Bach's contrapuntal keyboard works.
The strength of each line supersedes the passing dissonance.

Here's a few guitar example of C G7/C C in the way I was describing it.
My point is simple, F is a usable note in a C major environment.

Ex.1

X C X B E A --- X C X B D G --- X C G B E X --- X C F B D X --- F# X E A C X --- F X D Ab C X --- X C E A B X

Ex.2 (integrating F-E as a ma7)

X C F C E A --- X C F B E G --- X C G B E X --- X C G A E X --- X C F C D A --- X C F B E B --- X E A D G C

Ex.3 (integrating E-F as a b2)

X X C G A E --- (C) X B E F D --- (C) X A E F C --- (C) G# D F B X --- X X A E G C --- X X A E F# C

(C) may need to play the bass note separately, big thumb players maybe not.

[jsaras]

But those all lack the major 3rd, which makes quite a bit of difference.
They're V7 chords on a tonic pedal (and I'm pretty sure I've seen that in Bach...).

Your first point is correct. However, unlike Bach, my example has nothing to do with key-centered tonal harmony. Using my overtone-based system, each root is its own tonal center. In my short example the key centers move in major 3rds AND the treble structures are voice-lead perfectly. It's not just a bunch of parallel voicings; usually the first sign that someone doesn't know how to use a particular set of intervals.

Also each individual chord could hypothetically resolve to a sixth chord over the same root (the "smallest" four-note structure). 11 resolves to 3, 9 resolves to 1, and 7 resolves to 6). These moves are reversible and the voice leading would still be correct going across each bar line.

"You can't write today's music with yesterday's theory". - Lyle Spud Murphy.

[JonR]

Your first point is correct. However, unlike Bach, my example has nothing to do with key-centered tonal harmony. In fact, the key centers move in major 3rds AND the treble structures are voice-lead perfectly.

Sure - my Bach reference was about the use of them as single chords, not as a sequence. I get the major 3rd idea, and the voice-leading.

It's a nice idea, and I've been looking for different voicings/inversions, to get a chromatic or stepwise movement in the bass too. Some cool sounds there... How about this:

C -- C -- B -- Bb
Bb - Ab - G# - G
G -- Gb - E -- E
E -- Db - A -- F (this voice now has the major 3rd descent)
F -- Eb - D -- C

Others are possible, but I was trying to avoid b9 or b2 intervals.

[jsaras]

Here's an example of what I described, using the original progression as the point of departure. I ended it on an F minor.

http://www.audiorecordingandservices...leventhsV2.mp3

[Cunamara]

Wow, that's complicated. The short answer is that the ear accepts the b5 sound better against the 5th in the chord than it does the perfect 4th against the major 3rd.