Minor 6th chord

[Sheepman]

I'm beginning to learn music theory so could someone please explain why you can't have a E minor 6th chord in the key of C major. Why wouldn't it be E G B C?

Thanks,
Chris

[djangoles]

Emin6th is E G B C# = A9 no root or C#min7b5

[Chuck]

The diatonic chord built in thirds on the third step of the C major scale is e g b d, and the scale starting on the third step is called the phrygian mode: e f g a b c d

The second note of the phrygian mode in the key of C (f), and the sixth note, c, are called "avoid" notes because they create dissonant half tone intervals with the e and b, respectively (or a flat ninth interval if the f or c is voiced an octave above).

[bako]

m6 --- 1 b3 5 6
Em6--- E G B C#

E G B C --- 1 b3 5 b6

Although the intervals spell Emb6 this chord is interpreted as an inversion of Cma7.

E G B C --- 3 5 7 1

[Max1tani]

You can have the Em6 Chord in the C major scale.
The Db(C#) is the diminished note, from the diminished scale that is in the major scale.
Any way my point was, you can use the E G B Db(Em6 chord) inside the c major scale.

[JonR]

You can have the Em6 Chord in the C major scale.
The Db(C#) is the diminished note, from the diminished scale that is in the major scale.
Any way my point was, you can use the E G B Db(Em6 chord) inside the c major scale.

1. Em6 is E G B C#, as mentioned.
2. E-Db would be a diminished 7th interval (not a 6th). There is no standard scale that produces E G B Db.
3. E and Db do occur in the F harmonic minor scale, where the vii chord is Edim7: E G Bb Db
4. Staying with the diminished theme, E G B C# could be seen as an inverted C#m7b5 ("half-diminished").
5. There is no "diminished scale that is in the major scale" (that statement makes no sense). It would be true to say you can have a diminished chord in the major scale - on the vii step - because there is a diminished 5th between the 7th and 4th degrees; but in this case that means the D major scale (C#m7b5).

Yes, "you can use" an Em6 chord in the "key" of C major - because you can use any chord you like anywhere! - but the question was about chords diatonic to C major.
As pointed out, adding a diatonic 6th to Em in key of C produces E G B C. Arguably "Emb6" on the face of it, but - as bako says - more usually interpreted as an inversion of Cmaj7. (Because with E as root, the ear hears a b6 as an "avoid note", clashing with the 5th. With C as root - provided it's not a b9 above B - the B is accepted as a major 7th.

[Max1tani]

Yeah the C# is the correct one.
The dim scale I'm talking about is the one built on the 7th degree of Cmaj scale.
So we have B C# D E F G Ab(G#) Bb.
and you can use these notes.
About using any chord any were I agree! but you have to know what alteration the chord will give! otherwise it's called bullsh*ting.

[Max1tani]

that's how you get the Em6 chord.
And what you are actually doing is altering the V chord which is G7
So the C#m7b5 over G7 gives a G13 with a b5.
But you are right, if he was asking about approaching it diatonic'ly.

[Reg]

Without some type of reference or context for your discussion about Min 6th chord chord spelling etc... and even more important actual usage, your pretty much just playing a numbers game. Guidelines for spelling.

When you discuss E-6 with reference to Cma and in reference to common jazz practice... although somewhat more complicated because of references and possible references with jazz harmonic usage...anyway much more interesting.

Otherwise it is what it is as spelled above... 1,b3,5,b6 and the voicing issue is a different subject.
Reg

[Sheepman]

I'd like to thank everyone for their input! As for context, my guitar instructor gave me a chart of scale-tone chords. He wants my to explain why the minor 6th, 9th and 13th aren't available chords in major scales. I've found that the formula for minor 6th chords is Root, flat 3rd, perfect 5th, major 6th or 1, b3, 5, 6 and my example of E G B C doesn't fit the formula. How is the formula for each chord determined? I mean for the minor 9th it's 1, b3, 5, b7, 9 but usually played with the 5th omitted. How is it determined to omit the 5th and use the major 9th instead of the minor 9th? I know I'm way over thinking this, damn you OCD!

[whatswisdom]

The dim scale I'm talking about is the one built on the 7th degree of Cmaj scale.
So we have B C# D E F G Ab(G#) Bb.

The scale built on the 7th degree of Cmaj scale is the Locrian scale: BCDEFGA. Omit C# Ab(G#) Bb.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

The formula. I don't know if this is the official formula, but it works for me: think ii-V-I. In C, the ii-V-I is Dm7 G7 CMaj7, and if you imagine 13th chord arpeggios in C:

D F A C E G B
G B D F A C E
C E G B D F A

That gives you the minor, dominant and major chord extensions:

Dm7: D F A C
Dm9: D F A C E
Dm11: D F A C E G
Dm11: D F A C E G B

G7: G B D F
G9: G B D F A
G11: G B D F A C
G13: G B D F A C E

CMaj7: C E G B
CMaj9: C E G B D
CMaj11: C E G B D F
CMaj13: C E G B D F A

Omitting notes. This is a partially a guitar thing. It's hard to play large chords on the guitar. Rules of thumb:
1. If you are playing with a bass player, consider omitting the root. He's playing it!
2. Consider omitting the fifth. Either the bass player is playing it, too, or it's implied by the overtones of the root. Altered fifths (b5, #5) are less likely to be omitted because they are *not* implied by overtones.
3. Keep the 3rd and 7th! There are the tones that establish major-vs-minor, dominant-vs-major. With a bass player you can sound surprisingly good just playing this two notes! But see next point.
4. Chords with 11th/4th. If a major/dominant chord has a natural fourth played in it, guitarists either omit the 3rd, because of the clash, or play the 3rd a major 7th above the 4th (hip!). Modern pianists will play it as a minor second, lucky bastards. In minor 11th chords, the minor 3rd and 4th don't clash. In dom/major chords with a #11, the fifth is often omitted, but again the #11 sounds cool over the 5th.
5. 13th chords: you can get away with just playing the 3rd, 6th and 7th. Here is my favourite 13th grip (includes 9th):

BbMaj7: xx7533
Bb13: xx6533
Bb13b9: xx6433

You can add a bass Bb (6x----) to any of those, if this is a chord melody.

6. Complicated chord names: if you come across F7b5b13b9#9 in a chart, they are just transcribing horn parts. Play notes A and Eb until you figure out what else sounds good.

[JonR]

An "avoid note" is one that makes a nasty sound when added to a chord. That means a dissonance that's uncomfortable, with no obvious resolution. Typically this means a note a half-step above a chord tone (ie, b6/b13, b9 on major or minor chords, and 11 on major chords). It's not so much that half-step that's a problem, but when the note is added in the octave above, making a minor 9th interval.

In the C major scale, this means adding an F above any chord with an E in it, and adding a C above any chord with a B in it. The "above" is what matters. So C E G B is fine - a very sweet sounding Cmaj7 - but E G B C is risky: as a 1st inversion Cmaj7 it can work (as mentioned), but bump the C up another octave and it makes a pretty nasty interval.
E G B D C makes the C a b13 (because now we have a 7 in the chord); and that B-C interval is now a b9.

With adding F to a Cmaj7 (or Cmaj9) chord, you get an additional issue. C E G B (D) F - "Cmaj11" - becomes a combination of C and G7: two opposite functions (I against V7) at the same time, hence the uncomfortable sound of the chord. (Naturally, untrained ears won't recognise the sound for what it is - we just know it doesn't belong in "proper" music, because we've not heard it. That's in the nature of perception of dissonance: "good" dissonance is a familiar tension with an expected resolution we're used to hearing; a "bad" dissonance is one that "does not compute" in that way.)

So the way chords are built is (a) according to tertian principles (alternate scale notes from a nominated root), with (b) certain notes omitted for aural reasons, to do with avoiding non-functional dissonances.
So, no b9s; no 11s on maj chords; no b6s or b13s.

When it comes to "voicing" a chord - choosing a shape on guitar (or fingering on piano) - how you arrange the notes vertically, which ones you might exclude - other considerations come into play. On guitar we're limited by the number of strings, of course, so practicality is an issue.
The 5th of a major or minor chord is the most expendable, because acoustically it merely supports the root. The intervals between root, 3rd and 7th are enough to identify the type and function of the chord (we assume a P5, if we don't hear one). With higher extensions, we can sometimes omit other notes. Eg, with a 13th chord, the 9th is as optional as the 5th. And we omit the 11 anyway. So all we need for a "13" chord is root-3-b7-13; and if the bassist is playing the root... . (NB: it's important to voice the 13 above the 7, because vice versa risks that nasty b9 interval again.)

3rd and 7th tend to be always crucial, at least in standard jazz tertian harmony. They're the so-called "guide tones", and we can sometime play a sequence with those 2 notes alone (from each chord), and the sense of the progression is preserved. 9, 11 and 13 are really embellishments, enriching the basic function.
Remember that although we omit 11s from major chords, we can have #11s (lydian or lydian dominant chords), and we can have 7sus4, 9sus4 and 13sus4, where we keep the 11 and omit the 3rd, so "avoiding the avoid note" that way.
(The #11 still risks the "avoid note" syndrome if the 5th is voiced in a higher octave. Eg, C E G B D F# = OK. C D F# B D G, nope.)
11ths on m7 chords are fine, because the note is a whole step above the chord tone.

Lastly, these are just guidelines! It's never safe to say such-and-such a chord extension is "never" used - because someone will soon point out an instance of a famous player who used just that chord. It's more like ground rules for tried-and-tested harmonic effects in traditional key-based music. Worth bearing in mind that modal jazz and post-modal - and post-modern - jazz introduced whole new ways of building chords (and hearing them). Some things that sound "wrong" for one period or style will be just fine in another.

One big exception, even in old-fashioned functional jazz, is the 7b9 chord. That's - er, like - got a b9 in it, right? Yup... In this case, though, we can explain it via a familiar resolution: to a minor tonic, or sometimes a major; and also as a normal minor key vii chord (dim7) with a V bass note - such as G#dim7 in A minor, with E as bass. Somehow the strong functional sense of both E7 and G#dim7 (both suggesting a cadence to Am) allows the b9 to pass as "OK".

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sheepman,
keep in mind it's okay to use and play something and not know its multiple functions and origin. Sometimes my eyes cross reading replies in this theory forum but I know it's ok not to know everything. Sometimes, just knowing that a chord can fit in somewhere and not know why is ok. My point is don't let theory get in the way of learning and playing what sounds good to you at first. Understanding will come when it comes.

[JonR]

Sheepman,
keep in mind it's okay to use and play something and not know its multiple functions and origin. Sometimes my eyes cross reading replies in this theory forum but I know it's ok not to know everything. Sometimes, just knowing that a chord can fit in somewhere and not know why is ok. My point is don't let theory get in the way of learning and playing what sounds good to you at first. Understanding will come when it comes.

Absolutely. The ear is always right. You don't have to know why.

Theory, anyway, only comes from examining what most people think sounds right most of the time: agreed "common practices". It's not about what you "can" or "can't" do; only about what most composers have decided to do, most of the time (or have done in the past anyway).

[edh]

JonR, your previous post...you explained that very well.

thanks, a good lesson in theory.