functional thinking

[targuit]

Reg - I'm just teasing you a bit here, ok? Btw, I hope you got my e-mail I sent last week or so - I was worried when I didn't see your ruminations here on the forum. Good to see you back. The tease? Sometimes your posts read like e-mails from a Delphic oracle!

Jokes aside, I get your point about overall forms, number of measures, harmonic signposts, etc. And you do take music to a perhaps more abstract level than I do routinely. All I'm saying here is that one way to learn a tune is to learn the lyrics and the chord progression. Maybe I'm lazy (likely true), but quite honestly when I play a song like Manha de Carnaval, I don't mentally count the number of measures. I'm more into singing the lyrics and accompanying myself. But then again, I am oriented to singing as well as playing more exclusively instrumentally, though I would still sing it in my mind as I play. I'm not implying there is anything wrong with analysis such as im7 - ivm7- V7 -im7 - iim7b5....., just that the analysis is explicit if you give the chords a key and implicit if you know the tune well. I certainly don't have a problem transposing anything I know well (can sing or know the progression) on the fly. I don't think it really has anything to do with how you might use substitutions or something to alter the progression. That to me is another creative issue altogether. Just my 2 cents.

Btw, Bonfa was a pretty heavy cat! Serious guitarist/composer. I'm sure he would have little problem transposing his composition. It's interesting that you find the performance dated. Yes, it's an old recording, but there are only so many ways to play that song as a bossa nova. I know Como was not a jazz singer, but he had good pipes for sure.

[Reg]

Hey bako...I'm off to wk in a few minutes. Sounds good to me. Most forms have harmonic and melodic tendencies, which also function as basic references to work and memorize from. And the harmonic sign posts also generally have common tendencies and function or common movements etc...which also implies more reference than just the basic chord.

And yes, personally the flexibility or possibility of... Is part of playing in a jazz style.

Hey targuit ... Yes I caught your note, thanks. Your a good man, really.

I tried to say... There are many methods and approaches to music, there all valid and great. I have mine... They work on any stage or dark hole in the wall. The great thing about forms... They have basic spatial design. At least starting references. Most of what I talk about is in reference to performing in ensemble situations.

Harmonically.... form and the harmonic targets are what make melodies work, at least the majority of the time. Melodies imply harmony, or possibilities of. At least to my ears and comprehension of jazz.

With European music etc... The aspect of groove or in the pocket has very different references. Most jazz tunes are just the opposit .... Anyway great topic and very usefull for jazz performance.

Reg

[ColinO]

Hey Pingu.... So talking about how to remember or memorize tunes, jazz tunes.

Personally... the 1st and generally most important aspect of any standard or tune is the Form. The melody, harmony, rhythm etc... don't mean much with out the Form.

Let me first say... my reference for this explanation is the performance of tunes...

My approach is somewhat like filling in the blanks or connecting the dots. I begin with the whole picture and mechanically finish. I start with the Form of the tune and fill in the melodic and harmonic details.(I'm not composing)

I don't think with relationship to Tonic minor, relative or parallel maj. or min etc. I'm aware of harmonic relationships but usually simply think... Target chords or tonal centers and approaches. Those Targets work with the Form and the approaches can and do change with each performance.

Example... Black Orpheus,

My 1st thoughts are two 16 bar sections of Min Blues. So an "A" and variation... " A' " (or AB)

Roman numerals...

I- ..l ...............
I- ..l ...............
IV- l ... l I- l ...
V7 l ....l I- l ...

I- ................
IV- ..............
IV- l .... l I- .....
V7 l .... l I-.....

I can fill in the approaches as I want... but that would be my basic Form.

It also helps to play a few gigs every day and for me personally... I understand Harmony and different methods of organizing harmony... the theorys.

Classical or Maj/Min Functional Harmony is one of those sets of Guidelines. The organizational theory.

There are only basically so many common forms and harmonic progressions... chord patterns. After a while they become instinctive, and you just mechanically play with variations of them.

Feel free to make me get specific etc... Reg

Thanks for this Reg. This is incredibly helpful to me. Is this the way you would be approaching your improve as well?

[Reg]

Hey ColinO...

My approach is the same... comping or soloing. Personally they're the same. Obviously improve involves generally more horizontal concepts and applications, but my organization of.... Reference and creating relationships and development is basically the same. Every single note I play has a HARMONIC REFERENCE, I could voice chords below each note... which would reflect my harmonic reference.

Reg

[pingu]

Hey Pingu....

Example... Black Orpheus,

My 1st thoughts are two 16 bar sections of Min Blues. So an "A" and variation... " A' " (or AB)

Roman numerals...

I- ..l ...............
I- ..l ...............
IV- l ... l I- l ...
V7 l ....l I- l ...

I- ................
IV- ..............
IV- l .... l I- .....
V7 l .... l I-.....

I can fill in the approaches as I want... but that would be my basic form
<snip>

Feel free to make me get specific etc... Reg

thanks Reg , thats starting to make sense to me

it's very interesting to me that in your basic form
above
you have much less in there (than i do)
specifically no 2 5 info in there .....
I think i like that

also you don't go to the VI (Cmaj if we're in Amin)
in the second 4 bars ....
you stay in i minor thinking for those bars
thats strange to me but ...

i'm gonna apply myself to your minimal
way of thinking in the coming days

I think I like it

cheers man

[Reg]

Hey Pingu...
I generally would only label II V 's if they are targets. Tonal targets in them selves. The II V 's or the II or the V could become a tonal target, (a micro tonal center), but I generally only label the chart as beginning reference. Where I start from.

The Cmaj or bIII of "A" would or could be labeled. It's still a tonic target personally... a diatonic sub for I-. My ears would easily and almost instinctively are aware of relative and parallel harmonic relationships.

I would not just play what I spelled with Roman Numerals... when I play, it's just my functional harmonic outline... how my head and ears work. I just think tonal targets of Form and comp or solo as I hear for each situation. All single chords imply chord patterns... at least me personally. So do melodies...

Maybe think... when you see a chord symbol, Cmaj. You probable have a few voicings you could play, what lead note etc...
I do the same thing except I have and use chord patterns, short collections of chord progressions which I have collected from jazz standards which have common implication from jazz practice.

Anyway hope helps...Reg