m7b5 and Locrian Nat. 2

[jster]

Suppose you have a minor ii-V-i. Take Dm7b5-Galt-Cm.

1) How often do you play D Locrian Nat. 2 over the Dm7b5? Most of the time? Or not most of the time? Or if you don't like mode talk, how often do you play the 9? How often the b9?

2) Why do we even sometimes use Loc. Nat. 2 here? Do we just really dislike the Eb clashing against the bass note D? The wikipedia article on avoid notes says that there are no avoid notes in the D Locrian Nat. 2 for just this reason, no note a minor ninth/half step from the root. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoid_note

3) But the b9 doesn't sound so bad to me? Am I stupid? I can make the nat. 9 sound good and even hip, but I can't really land on it. I don't like the b9 because it sounds too vanilla. But not because it sounds bad. I think if I were pressed I would say that the 9 sounds worse. (But of course sometimes we like to be bad.)

4) Are there any standards that have an explicit m9b5?

5) Back to that wikipedia article, if you follow the reasoning they give there, then it seems like the altered scale should have an avoid note because of the b9. But it doesn't. What gives?

I'm not that hung up on the whole avoid note thing, but it is all over the internet. Everybody kind of agrees that Lydian sounds better than Ionian over a maj7 chord. But then the whole avoid note thing gets pushed and generalized and I wonder who buys all this? After all there are only a few chords and notes. Doesn't seem that hard to get to know each of them up close and personal.

[srlank]

Check out the tune 'The Peacocks' by Jimmy Rowles for an example of this sound.

[GuyBoden]

Suppose you have a minor ii-V-i. Take Dm7b5-Galt-Cm.

1) How often do you play D Locrian Nat. 2 over the Dm7b5? Most of the time? Or not most of the time? Or if you don't like mode talk, how often do you play the 9? How often the b9?

2) Why do we even sometimes use Loc. Nat. 2 here? Do we just really dislike the Eb clashing against the bass note D? The wikipedia article on avoid notes says that there are no avoid notes in the D Locrian Nat. 2 for just this reason, no note a minor ninth/half step from the root. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoid_note

3) But the b9 doesn't sound so bad to me? Am I stupid? I can make the nat. 9 sound good and even hip, but I can't really land on it. I don't like the b9 because it sounds too vanilla. But not because it sounds bad. I think if I were pressed I would say that the 9 sounds worse. (But of course sometimes we like to be bad.)

4) Are there any standards that have an explicit m9b5?

5) Back to that wikipedia article, if you follow the reasoning they give there, then it seems like the altered scale should have an avoid note because of the b9. But it doesn't. What gives?

I'm not that hung up on the whole avoid note thing, but it is all over the internet. Everybody kind of agrees that Lydian sounds better than Ionian over a maj7 chord. But then the whole avoid note thing gets pushed and generalized and I wonder who buys all this? After all there are only a few chords and notes. Doesn't seem that hard to get to know each of them up close and personal.

Answer Question 1)
I mostly use the Melodic Minor Mode 6 over m7b5, I play the natural 9, I'd only use the b9 if it sounded good as part of a strong melodic statement.

Here's the type of line I play starting on the Natural 9:


Answer Question 2) and Question 3)
If you have practiced playing the Locrian scale over a m7b5, I think that our ears begin to accept the b9 sounds ok. This is a problem of the "this scale fits over this chord" improvising method. Not all notes are equal.

Answer Question 5)
G7b9 has a b9, so does the G Altered scale.

IMHO, if you are using the "this scale fits over this chord" improvising method, you need to spend a lot of time finding/hearing which notes in the scale sound better than others over the specified chord/progression.

Have fun
Guy

[jster]

Thanks Guy. I see what you are doing there. But it seems like you just pass through the E and take off from it, but you don't really land on it. Is that correct?

[jster]

Check out the tune 'The Peacocks' by Jimmy Rowles for an example of this sound.

Great. Thanks for that. I will work on that quite a bit when I get back from the beach.

[bako]

Context matters. What notes were in play previously? What notes are upcoming? What does the melody suggest?
The choice is whether to emphasize the commonalities or differences within adjacent chords or within full song form.

Out of context I use b9 in IIm7b5 V7 Im and 9 in IIm7b5 V7 Ima (commonalities)

Dm7b5 G7b9 Cm --- Eb (b9) becomes Eb (b13) becomes Eb (m3)
Dm7b5 G7b9 Cma --- E (9) becomes E (13) becomes E (ma3)

unless I want to emphasize more movement

F Ab C E --- F Ab B Eb --- Eb G B D

F Ab C E --- F Ab B Eb --- E G B D

This is a problem of the "this scale fits over this chord" improvising method. Not all notes are equal.

I would go one further: All notes are different and their meaning evolves along with the shifting harmonies.
This awareness or lack thereof is not directly connected to any one improvising method.

[GuyBoden]

Thanks Guy. I see what you are doing there. But it seems like you just pass through the E and take off from it, but you don't really land on it. Is that correct?

Yes, I'm using the "E" as a passing note to the "F". I just quickly recorded this example, because I find music theory easier to understand with a musical example.

All notes are different and their meaning evolves along with the shifting harmonies.
This awareness or lack thereof is not directly connected to any one improvising method.

Yes, I agree, it's how the notes sound in the context of the musical moment that really matters.

Have fun
Guy

[jster]

Dm7b5 G7b9 Cma --- E (9) becomes E (13) becomes E (ma3)

What mode would you use here over the G7b9 out of context?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I was taught to use Locrian and I never liked leaning on the b9 much. When I discovered Locrian nat9, I never looked back. I was it all the time. Isn't this Coltrane's preference, too?

On Dm7b5 G7alt Cmin, the nat9 is E, so it gives you a "stepping out of minor" sound, which I like. This gives you a reason to step back in! Plus, the nat9 over the Dm7b5 is just a beautiful sound.

[MattC]

Good topic. Coming from a background of playing blues and playing around key centers, I have had to very gradually work on the approach of treating each chord as it's own event. I have taken a handful of lessons with some pro jazz players in my neck of the woods and they have all recommended working melodic minor mode sounds into my playing. Altered dominant and minor major 7th tonic sounds have come more readily to my ear and hands, but I haven't really learned how to get that Locrian natural 9th sound in my ears in a minor key. In a major key it makes more sense to me since then the note in question is diatonic.

BDLH, can you cite a Coltrane solo that's good example of him playing natural 9ths over ii chords, especially one in a minor key. I love listening to Coltane, but I've never really studied or transcribed any of his lines.

[JensL]

I pretty much agree with Bako on context being key.

To me the nat 9th on a m7b5 is a flavour that I can use if I really want to hear that so I'll emphasize or sustain it.

Using it as a passing note, then both that and the b9 will work just fine IMO.

As far as I remember Chick Corea's solo on the big band verison of Joe Hendersons Inner Urge he uses it quite a lot on the F#m7b5, but that's also m7b5 for 4 bars. That does not happen very often.

On an altered dominant you want to create tension so the b9 is not an avoid note, it is a note creating tension that you then resolve. On a min7b5 or maj7 chord you don't want to create tension like that so you don't rest on or otherwise emphasize that note. It does not mean you don't play it in passing though.

I don't really care what the internet or wikipedia says, but to say that lydian "sounds better" than ionian is to me completely misunderstood, like Bako said: "context" In most places the key of the song is a better choice than the key of the dominant, and in some cases it makes things unclear. Try to play lydian at the end of the 2nd A of secret love before going to the bridge f.ex.

Jens

[ECHOPLEX]

After all there are only a few chords and notes. Doesn't seem that hard to get to know each of them up close and personal.[/QUOTE]

There is wisdom in these words in my opinion. My own way of thinking is that all twelve notes are viable options over any chord, the only thing is that each one has a specific relationship to the chord of the moment, some notes are great for passing notes on the weaker beats and up beats other are target notes to put on the one and three. I always think the best way to learn how to use each note over different chords is the playing on one string technique, that really seems to simplify things and show things in a clearer light. While I believe scales have there place ,I think some beginners fall in to the trap of thinking they are the only notes to be played and the others are forbidden.

[jster]

On a very slow ballad, I like the nat 9. Then when you go to the alt7 you can just move the MM a minor third. Charlie Haden does that in a number of places. Basically what Guy and probably BDLH like to do.

But Bako's default choices seem to preclude that MM on both the ii and the V idea.

But sure context is central. It's all good. Thanks for the input.

[jster]

I don't really care what the internet or wikipedia says, but to say that lydian "sounds better" than ionian is to me completely misunderstood

I'm gonna get you a copy of George Russell for your birthday!

[ECHOPLEX]

Hey jster , hope you have got plenty of money in the bank,have you seen how much it goes for these days.

[JensL]

I'm gonna get you a copy of George Russell for your birthday!

Thanks! I never read it.

I trust my ears more than a book by George Russell though....

Jens

[jster]

Thanks! I never read it.

I trust my ears more than a book by George Russell though....

Jens

There is some music by some of the devotees of Russell that IMHO is totally amazing and unlike other music. I'll post a link as soon as I can find it. The AAJ forum is down this week, so I can't get in my message box. I'd be really curious to hear what you pros think of it.

[bako]

On a very slow ballad, I like the nat 9. Then when you go to the alt7 you can just move the MM a minor third. Charlie Haden does that in a number of places. Basically what Guy and probably BDLH like to do.

But Bako's default choices seem to preclude that MM on both the ii and the V idea.

But sure context is central. It's all good. Thanks for the input.

I don't preclude anything. The rootless voicing examples I gave with chromatic movement uses melodic minor on II and V.
The example in minor also uses it on the I chord.

I tend to view chords and melody as part of the same continuum. Note combinations that sound good in chord voicings will have melodic counterparts and vice versa.

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Echoplex,

I agree, all 12 notes are in play over any chord but my preference is to access them via passing chords rather than isolated passing notes. Dominant approach chords are the most common but any superimposed progression that you hear is possible.

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Three exercises:

1--- For ear training: Play all 12 notes of the chromatic scale one at a time against a full chorus of a given song.
Learn how each note sounds even when it is "not so pretty". Take note of those places and play it again but resolve up and down a half step. Learn that sound as well.

2--- Improvise in song form using only half steps.

3---Pick any 4 or 6 chromatic notes. Improvise in song form melodically using only those notes.

[jster]

I don't preclude anything. The rootless voicing examples I gave with chromatic movement uses melodic minor on II and V.

Right. I was just referring to your first two "out of context" choices. Your points are well taken. I'm still curious about your answer to my question at #8.

[bako]

Originally Posted by bako
Dm7b5 G7b9 Cma --- E (9) becomes E (13) becomes E (ma3)

What mode would you use here over the G7b9 out of context?

I am guessing that you are asking: What G7b9 mode has a natural 13?

G Ab B E F

G Ab B C D E F

G Ab B C# D E F

G Ab Bb B C# D E F

[jster]

OK, let's add some context! Blue Bossa!

http://mobetterblues.altervista.org/...ue%20Bossa.gif

What modes do you guys like for each bar?

Cm6 Cm6 Fm7 Fm7

Dm7b5 Galt Cm6 Cm6

Ebm7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 Dbmaj7

Dm7b5 Galt Cm6 Cm6
------------------------
Here are my choices:

Cm6 Cm6 Fm7 Fm7
Cmelmin >> F dorian?

Dm7b5 Galt Cm6 Cm6
Dloc2 Galt Cmelmin (I still like moving that melodic minor up a minor third then a major third.)

Ebm7 Ab7 Dbmaj7 Dbmaj7
DbIonian

Dm7b5 Galt Cm6 Cm6
Dloc2 Galt Cmelmin
--------------------------
I'm basically an arp guy trying to add a lot more color to my lines.

[JensL]

It is not like there is only one choice.

I think it is a part of the skill set to have different options for different choruses.

Your choices are fine, I will play that in a solo for sure, but I'll also do a lot of other things.

Jens

[jster]

How many different things exactly are we talking about? I don't doubt you for a minute. But if you or somebody else could make explicit three or more modal ways of playing through this tune, it would be much appreciated. For variety, I might use straight arps, then maybe octaves, then my all fourths secret weapon , then the one modal approach I outlined above. But I have trouble coming up with more than one "modal option".

Somebody really ought to come up with a BIAB tool that gives dummies like me different EXPLICIT note pools. I get that there are lots of options. Now, what the heck are they?

Of course if you guys are trying to keep it all a secret, I understand.

[JensL]

Well it is indeed a state secret...

excuse the short hand, but you get the picture I think

CmMelodic | FmMelodic |

D locrian | G7 alt | CmMelodic

Eb dorian | Ab7 mixo | Dbmajor

------------------------------------

CmBlues | FmDorian

D locrian nat 2 | G7b913 | CmDorian

Eb dorian | Ab7 13b9 dim | Dbmajor(#11)

--------------------------------

CmDorian | FmHarmonic
Dm7 dorian | G7mixo b9b13 | Cm Aeolian
Eb Dorian | Ab alt | Dbmajor #4,#5

So some of them I would not use every time, and I might spread it out more over more choruses than 3, and I would change some chords in another way once in a while etc etc.
I like augmented scale for tonic minor too, in this case on Cm: B D Eb F# G Bb but since it does not even contain a C it is a bit in the special FX department, or the odd Michael Brecker cliche.

Jens

[JensL]

Somebody really ought to come up with a BIAB tool that gives dummies like me different EXPLICIT note pools. I get that there are lots of options. Now, what the heck are they?

They did! It's called Keith Jarret plays standards, and it swings way better than BIAB

Jens