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I have noted the usage of both #4 and b5, fortunately not in the same bit of sheet music. As this is the same note I am puzzled as to why the different notations are used. I am familiar with the usage of "b" notes in jazz, which only makes me wonder the more. Is there some bit of subtle theroetical concideration which has an impact on the rest of the music, of which I am unaware? or is it just the whim of the musician on the spur of the moment? I would be grateful for any enlightenment on the subject. Best regards 0zoro
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08-25-2013 09:54 AM
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#4 leaves the possibility for the perfect fifth to be in the chord. A Lydian sound, for example. b5 is explicitly describing that the fifth is diminished.
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What he said
Originally Posted by Bryan T
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When people communicate #11 or b5, they are also communicating the underlying chord scale, because, while it's the same pitch, what you call it is often determined by spelling out the scale that one is using with the chord.
But, many folks refer to #11 and b5 almost indiscriminately, so the usage is blurred, in practice.
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I don't like b5. And I prefer to use 11 over 4, although that has no theoretical value and it's just me being accustomed to the 11, Here's my take on the b5 thing.
Take a major scale, everything is natural.
Now #11, it's a lydian scale.
Now #5, it makes a augmented lydian scale.
So those two options give two viable scale options with your chords.
If you take the original major scale, and instead of #11, make it b5, you don't really have a viable scale. In C, it would spell
C D E F Gb A B C
That's not really an existing scale. I'm the kind of person that does not believe that a scale should have the same scale degree repeated twice (except for the 9 in the altered/dim scales. I'll explain in a bit).
With that in mind, take the altered scale. 1 b9 #9 3 #4 #5/b6 b7
If you replaced the #4 with a b5, it the scale would have two 5's and although it might make a little more sense by having a b5 and a #5, instead of one altered 5 and one natural 5, it would create some discrepancies in the scale, since depending on how you write it, the scale will already be missing a degree, either the 5 or 6. If you use 2 5th scale degrees, then it will be missing both a 4 or a 6, or if you use b5 and b6, then it will still be missing a 4th, and there would be a sort of large visual gap between 3 and b5 if you write the scale down.
So going back to the 9 I said I would explain, which also relates a little to the 5. I see the b9 as the only scale degree that could be used twice in a scale, as long as the two 9s are altered (b9 and #9), so no mixing up a natural 9 and an altered 9. This is because, if you had, say, a scale excerpt that had 1 b9 #9 3, you could also enharmonically spell it as 1 b9 b3 3. This creates some heavy confusion because you would not know what the real 3rd is, meaning, the scale and chord would not have a set quality. If you do this on the 5th (add a b5 and a #5) it will not always create problems. However, in some cases it might. An augmented triad will have a #5, not a b13. And a diminished chord (the only time I will ever refer to this scale degree as a b5) will have a b5, not a #11.
So in conclusion, I like to refer to my raised 4ths as #11, not b5. I like my #5 over b13 in most cases, and the only time I will ever use b5 is if I'm referring to a diminished chord (which naturally includes -7b5 chords). This is just how I organize myself, and different musicians have different ways of writing things. Some will prefer to use double 5ths, or whatever. It's good to get used to reading things different ways.
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This is true, but there are two ways of looking at the altered scale, which solves the issue for me. Originally Posted by jtizzle
1. It's a mode of melodic minor - aka "superlocrian" - and the "3" is really a "b4". The scale runs 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7, so that's one of each note. That's if you want to follow the scale rule of one of each note...
2. It's a collection of the various chord tones and alterations of an altered dom7. Root, 3rd, 7th, both altered 5ths and both altered 9ths. It's not a "scale" in that sense, just a collection of pitches. It doesn't matter if there are two of the same degree.
Option 2 is how the "scale" actually works. (The melodic minor connection is coincidence, useful for those who have learned their melodic minor scales, or who think improvisation material has to derive from a bona fide "scale".)
A 3rd option is to see the altered scale as its tritone sub, if that makes sense. So a "G7alt" chord (and its scale) is really a Db7#11 (and its "lydian dominant" scale). From Db, the scale runs 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7. There's an easy "one of each note" pattern (and with the #4 too!
).
That's also another valid functional way of understanding the altered scale (for me anyway). All those alterations on V7 are bizarre until you realise it's the tritone sub: a plain mixolydian scale from the bII of the key, just preserving the natural V degree of the key (as the #4 of bII). Thinking bII helps one see that the altered V7 is all about half-step resolutions to I (any chord tone or extension of I).
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This issue seems odd to me, as I have never to my recollection seen a #4th in sheet music, classical or otherwise, whereas b5 is ubiquitous.
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Thanks JonR and jtizzle for your responses, the effert you both but into it has given me a better undrstanding. It is clear that I must consult the Jazz Theory book (or what ever its called) when I get home. This is a concept I am struggling with without any additional theory aides, it is prehaps a simpleclarity for everyone else but I still find it a bit etherical. Thanks again 0zoro
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Levine (The Jazz Throey Book) likes to write #4, but in sheet music I see #11, and you can think of the original question as b5 or #11. Originally Posted by targuit
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I can't agree with your first point, since the scale is an altered dominant scale, it needs to have a major third, or else, spelling-wise, it won't spell a dominant scale. Originally Posted by JonR
This is true, but there are two ways of looking at the altered scale, which solves the issue for me.
1. It's a mode of melodic minor - aka "superlocrian" - and the "3" is really a "b4". The scale runs 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7, so that's one of each note. That's if you want to follow the scale rule of one of each note...
2. It's a collection of the various chord tones and alterations of an altered dom7. Root, 3rd, 7th, both altered 5ths and both altered 9ths. It's not a "scale" in that sense, just a collection of pitches. It doesn't matter if there are two of the same degree.
Option 2 is how the "scale" actually works. (The melodic minor connection is coincidence, useful for those who have learned their melodic minor scales, or who think improvisation material has to derive from a bona fide "scale".)
A 3rd option is to see the altered scale as its tritone sub, if that makes sense. So a "G7alt" chord (and its scale) is really a Db7#11 (and its "lydian dominant" scale). From Db, the scale runs 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7. There's an easy "one of each note" pattern (and with the #4 too!).
That's also another valid functional way of understanding the altered scale (for me anyway). All those alterations on V7 are bizarre until you realise it's the tritone sub: a plain mixolydian scale from the bII of the key, just preserving the natural V degree of the key (as the #4 of bII). Thinking bII helps one see that the altered V7 is all about half-step resolutions to I (any chord tone or extension of I).
I do agree with your 2nd and 3rd points however. In theory, especially the third one, it should give off a correct way of seeing it, but when you tritone sub, you get all these enharmonics going on that just mess with reading facility (such as reading in #'s versus reading in b's, and different enharmonic keys work better than others).
However, the way I view the #11 vs b5 issue (and other alterations), sums up the altered scale thing together with my view on other scales, which is why I used the major scale as another example.
But everyone has their own way of viewing things. I don't think any of the ways of saying #4 is more correct than the other way.
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I agree with Jon's statement above, I'd say that hearing how the Altered scale notes create tension that can be resolved to the Tonic chord's notes is more important than naming the note a #11 or b5. Originally Posted by JonR
Personally, I hear the Altered scale as a Locrian scale with with a Major third and naming the minor third as a #9, I suppose that's why it is also known as a "Super Locrian", so knowing the Locrian scale made it easy to play the "Super Locrian" scale.
Root
b9
#9
3
b5
#5
b7
Root
But, it could also be heard as a Locrian scale with a flatten fourth.
Last edited by GuyBoden; 08-29-2013 at 04:31 AM. Reason: Having both a Major and minor third causes confusion.
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Yes,I think that's where the "superlocrian" name comes from. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
But, it could also be heard as a Locrian scale with a flatten fourth.
(I mean locrian with diminished 4th - I'm not sure I'd "hear" it as that, because I think I'd hear the b4 as a M3, if only because that's how it's usually used.)
There's also "ultralocrian", which is 7th mode harmonic minor. That's superlocrian with a diminished 7th!
1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7
Anyone want to guess what "megalocrian" might be...? (it doesn't exist yet)
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Yes you're correct, a M3rd is how it sounds when notes of the altered scale are played over an alt dom chord. Originally Posted by JonR
I hear the melodic minor modes as one big family of interrelated scales, they're more ambiguous sounding than the Major Scale modes so I find them more flexible.
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My feelings are that when using the "scale for a chord" approach to improvising, it's essential to know instinctively where each of the chord's notes are in the scale and be able to land on each one at will.
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"b5" experiences excerpted from Dizzy Gillespie's 1979 memoir titled: To Be Or Not To Bop Originally Posted by 0zoro
Referring to Rudy Powell, a sax player who was an integral player in the Edgar Hayes band, Diz offers:
Pg 92 - "Rudy wrote this arrangement for Edgar Hayes that had this weird change, an E-flat chord built on an A, the flatted fifth. When I ran across that in the music, it really hit--boom! The flatted fifth. Oooo man!
I played that thing over and over, and over again, and started using it in my solos. Edgar Hayes had this arrangement, a ballad, and the chord was an E-flat. I was always aware of where the chord was and also the time. I figured that was fundamental, but you don't stick to fundamentals. He had an E-flat chord in there, and I heard this A concert going up scale, and I played it, and I played it again, played it again, and again.
I said, Damn! Listen at this sh*t! Listen at this man! That's when I first became aware that there was a flatted fifth. Before that time, until 1938, that was not a part of my musical conception. It wasn't considered a "flatted fifth" then, it was considered a half step.
From doing this, I found out that there were a lot of pretty notes in a chord that were well to hold, instead of running over them. That's what Rudy taught me, and that has governed my playing ever since. And that's one of the things that's distinctive about Miles Davis, that he learned from me, I'm sure. Because I showed him on the piano the pretty notes in our music. There are a lot of pretty notes in a chord, and if you hold them for an extended time, it adds a hue, a hue to your solos.
Pg 260 - In 1944 the pop guys were writing mostly fundamentals at that time. They didn't write any hip flatted fifths, and we considered our changes improvements on the sound of popular music. It added new sounds to pop music, and the arrangers now use it. I can hear a lotta the music that we created during those years now, in motion pictures and television.
Pg 343 - They made us perform a bebop greeting for them. "Hi-ya, man! Bells man, where you been?" giving the sign of the flatted fifth, a raised open hand."
Many people are unaware that Dizzy was a supreme piano player. Diz arranged most of his band stuff at the piano. In 1992, I had the privilege of actually getting a piano lesson from Diz.
Personally, I've always written +11 rather than b5. I purposely don't write #11, because I use the # sign as a visual cue for Major harmonies, i.e., C Maj7 #4. On dominant7 chords I'll always use a + sign to denote a +5, +9, +11. Enharmonically, of course, it's the same note as the b5.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 09-05-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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Oh! There is one more thing I forgot to point out.
Another "rule" I learned early in my theory class days:
What you call the note is in relation to where it's coming from and more importantly, where it's going.
I mentioned the scale thing, where you want to arrange the set of notes, hopefully, in a manner that is scale like, so if you're in C, and you have E F# G, you would say scale degrees 3, #4/#11, 5, instead of 3, b5, nat 5.
However, more importantly, think of resolutions. If, for example, you're in the key of C and you resolve from G to F# (for some reason), then your F# should be analyzed as a #4/#11. However, if you're resolving from an F to an F#, you should analyze it as a b5, just for sake of keeping it orderly.
Just an old "rule" I remembered while lurking again. Again, not that it's a rule you should abide by, and it doesn't make it wrong to see it another way. Just figured I'd chime in a little more info on the topic.
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I try to follow that scale rule when writing down lines, but that means when writing down an altered lick, I write a b4, which bothers me.
What do folks do in this case? Notate the lick with a b4 note or use both b3 and nat3?
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i would write how i hear and see with respect to the harmony, so #9 and 3. traditional conventions don't necessarily fit perfectly over modern practices.
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Everything depends, of course ... But, when I'm transcribing, I'm trying to notate for ease of reading and to reflect the theoretical context of the line (as best I can interpret it). IOW, if it's a D7 arpeggio you might see F# as the spelling that most quickly and easily signals that it's a D7 arpeggio, and if it's an Eb MM (D7 alt) line, I'd more likely use all flats, so that it was apparent, "Ah, he's playing Eb MM here." Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Apologies to the OP if we're getting too far off-topic, here.
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Ok so its an 'X' 7b5 or 7#11? I have two diferent progressions as examples of two diferent cases
The fisrt its a regular minor 2 5 1 in Cm
Dm7b5 - G7#5 - Cm9
Second time I'd do
Dm7b5 -G7b5 - Cm9
(or it's G7 #11?)
Second progrssion goes:
Emaj7 - C#m7 - F#m7 - D9#11
I do a passing G7b5 btw the C#m7 and F#m7..or again, it's called G7#11 in this case? thanks guys.
Adding one more example,in Stella by Startlight in the Ab7#11 why its not b5 instead? Sorry I know I'm abussingLast edited by AlteredDave; 09-20-2013 at 05:42 PM.
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Sorry to jump in late...
So generally the notation... spelling of chord symbols. Has a reference, why the actual spelling.
There are basically two methods of understanding,
1)Performance... the notation's first and most important goal is the performance of the music. Theory and harmony are secondary. The goal is for the performer to be able to read through and not think about anything except the performance. The guidelines may change for different instruments... and depending on the knowledge of the composer, copyist or what usually is the controlling factor in recent years... what notation app. or program one is using.
2)The next method of notation, which generally is more common with jazz charts... the notation implies the harmonic and melodic starting references. Let that sink in.... the spelling of chords and melodic lines.... are telling you how and where to start from harmonically...for this arrangement or composition... the tune your playing.
Not how you may have learned the tune, or how you play the tune. When you play tunes... you should have a general harmonic reference... Your starting point or reference for creating relationships and developing them.
The organization of where and why you play notes or chords that are not notated on the chart.
Anyway this understanding leads to specific spellings of chords.... not rule of thumbs etc... When b5 is notated, there is a harmonic or melodic reason or reference which lead to that spelling. #4, #11,#5, b13 etc... they all have references beside what you may have learned from music class or notation programs.
I could spell out the spellings and references... but if your not aware, you might want to go through the exercise of becoming aware. I'll gladly help... RegLast edited by Reg; 09-21-2013 at 11:08 AM.
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To Reg's comment on Performance... When I'm writing a tune/chart and I'm deciding between #11 or b5, I'm generally thinking of what I want the bass player to play. If I want a natural 5 in the bass I'll use #11 instead of b5.
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This one *is* a b5, because, in your context, you're suggesting G7alt (and not G7lyd) as the underlying harmony. Originally Posted by AlteredDave
This one (the D7) is #11, as written. Originally Posted by AlteredDave
The passing G7 should be #11, but you so often see this usage written as b5 that players will interpret it "correctly," even though it's not technically "correct." Originally Posted by AlteredDave
If you're playing Stella in Bb, the Ab7 is #11 because in context (as a bVII7) it's representing an Ab7lyd harmony, and not Ab7alt.Last edited by M-ster; 09-21-2013 at 11:58 AM.
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It's really cool to see we're at least thinking what the spelling implies. As compared to what someone says etc...
There are many options, depending on what you have to make a decision from and how much your aware of the common practice of the style of the tune.
Fep's reason for spelling was performance related, probably the more common reason for notation, right. You know what you want in a performance situation.... or maybe even more important, you know what you don't want. That can be from a theory or harmonic reason... or just what you hear and who cares why.
M-ster dove into the deep in of the pool, right. He using harmonic context to organize choice of spelling.
Not really any big deal... most people know how to swim'
The 1st example...
His quote;
This one *is* a b5, because, in your context, you're suggesting G7alt (and not G7lyd) as the underlying harmony.
So M-ster is using choice of G7altered as what that G7b5 implies.
I would guess M-ster is using as his reference... common jazz practice... and the spelling also.
Altered Dave I'm assuming your voicing...
X 5 6 5 6 X
3 X 3 4 4 X
X 3 1 3 3 X
Nice lead line of F Eb D. So we know G7altered from Ab mel min is G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F and the actual chord tones are... G Bb Db and F... wait that spells a G-7b5. ???
Sorry... from jazz common practice we know that there are basically two source for G7 altered, the trial and error or old school method G7 with dim and whole tone usage ... or altered tensions.
The basic chord chord tones of Root, 3rd and b7th remain constant and the other elements or notes implied from the chord are altered'
1) borrowed from the tonic minor if the implied key is Major
2) borrowed from the tonic major if the implied key is Minor
3) the notes are pulled from another scale altogether... phrygian, Lydian etc..
Long story short... you do what you want and spell how you want... works fine.
The more modern common usage is we pull G7alt. from 7th degree of Ab melodic Min and spell the notes as;
1,b9,#9, b11 becomes 3, b5, b13, b7 ... there are other spellings... but the harmonic reference is MM, and we usually use modal interchange as our source for using those notes from MM.
Back to D-7b5... I usually use locrian from Ebmaj
G7#5 would be G7altered from AbMM
C-9 would be Dorian from Bbmaj
This is with C- being my tonal reference and using modal interchange as means of accessing those references.
I could explain'
D-7b5 from F mm
G7alt from Abmm
C-9ma7 from Cmm... there are many options.
The use of #11 or #4 on a Dom chord has a few sources also. Let me clear up one practice... when you use #11 your implying chord tones and extensions... typically chords are spelled with 3rds as compared to spelling scales which are step wise or in 2nds. Same notes... different context of usage.
This is getting to be too much BS... There are very few b5's or #5's with common harmonic usage or reference. There generally #11 and b13 in jazz.
Will continue latter Reg
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Thanks man that was helpfull! Originally Posted by M-ster
Last edited by AlteredDave; 09-22-2013 at 04:14 AM.
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