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With all this discussion about MM I thought I'd spin off a question. When playing over a Cmin7 that is functioning as the tonic minor chord (the "i" chord) why does C Jazz Minor scale sound good? To my ear it sounds better than playing C Dorian. Maybe I should just comp a Cmin6 and leave it at that!
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07-05-2013 01:08 PM
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hmmm. I would think Aeolian, Dorian, minor pentatonic, or blues.
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You're saying that it sounds good to you to play a B natural on the chord when it contains a Bb? You sure about that? That's the only difference from dorian, so it must be the case.
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
I can't see (or hear) that working myself, unless the B is a chromatic approach (up to C or down to Bb).
It's conventional for a tonic minor chord in jazz to be a melodic minor chord, however (potential 6, maj7 or 9 extensions), so it may be that you're hearing that sound, and ignoring the m7 sound of the chord itself. But it really comes down to that clash between b7 and maj7, and how that's being handled. They can't really occur together (and sound good) - IMO - but they could well both play a part in a scale, as part of a chromatic run, whichever kind of 7th the chord has.
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Jon's on to it. I'm thinking you have the Dorian notes (1 through 6) plus a leading tone (which essentially works everywhere). Why wouldn't that work? Originally Posted by JonR
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You guys are making sense. Plus I like the bit of dissonance of the major 7 over the minor 7. I don't hang on it.
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m7 shouldn't be a tonic anyway.
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Very common. Coltrane did it all the time... on mr. p.c. he even holds the major 7 for several beats, without resolution. Not sure whether or not the minor 7th is very prominent is Tyner's comping underneath at the exact moment.
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You're right, Trans loves C# over Dm7: Originally Posted by RyanM
I think the piano is Tommy Flanagan.
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I think that the B natural (of any natural 7th in a minor context) gives the impression of the V chord. The V chord which has the natural 7th acts as a leading tone to the tonic (C in this instance). I also like the sound of the A natural against the C-7 as well as the B natural.
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re: blue bossa. the new real book (sher) gives Cm6 where the old (illegal) real book gives Cm7. the melody, of course, contains only the lowered 6th and 7th, i.e., the 'natural minor'. spice to taste.
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what do you mean?? almost every minor tune I know ends on m7. what`s wrong with that??? I mean a simple minor chord has a resonance that to me isn`t suited for jazz.
And to actually answer the question: in jazz you can play anything over anything, if you hear a b natural when the band is playing cm7 then by all means play it.Last edited by GiantSteps; 07-06-2013 at 05:26 AM.
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minor6th, major 6th and minor7th and major7th are always available to me when I solo.
Ear decides what I'll use. Though I tend not to use the minor 6th interval very much at all in a bebop setting. It sounds too... "serious". The major 6th is softer, sweeter and more prominent. The min6th doesn't really have anything to it by itself, but in the context of a line, some times it works as a good component, a passing tone. I think it is dissonant to linger on. Maybe not exactly dissonant, but not very pleasing. Redundant is the word. Whatever, sometimes I hear it in a line but not too often.
And then minor7th and major7th a matter of taste and context.
I use a composite minor approach which means that I have only one minor scale.
Take the key of A minor, the only notes that I consider part of the scale: A,B,C,D,E. The remaining intervals are interchangeable between major and minor intervals depending on what I hear.
This goes for minor chord contexts. For substitutions I find it convenient to think of melodic minor as a sovereign scale. But then again I rarely use the melodic minor on minor chords, but on major, dominant and m7b5s.
You could analyze what I play and say I use melodic minor on a minor chord, but I usually just think about that #7, and augmented triad or something like that. I rarely conceptualize my minor lines around different scales. Too much mind work.
That's why I like to visualize things around the scale I mentioned as an outline: A,B,C,D,E. It is then very easy to interchange 6ths and 7ths at will depending on if I hear them as major or minor.
I like m6 chords a lot for comping because they don't suggest anything in regards to the 7th. I like m9 cluster voicings. Regular m7ths sound very bland to me for the most part, but they have their uses too. I like to use the maj7th, maj7b5 and maj7#5s as a substitution not only for minor chords, but also for dom7ths.
That's how I conceptualize things in the minor sphere.
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I had a private lesson with Mark Elf a while back and we spent a few minutes talking about this very topic. He told me he likes to play MM even if the chord underneath is a minor 7th (rather than a 6th or minor/major 7th).
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Any note can work it's all in how its being articulated. So how is it being used is key to answering why it sounds right.
Answers to questions like this usually lie in where the note was placed in time and what notes surround it. Take the line that it sound right in, then shift the rhythm a eight, does it still sound right?
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If there's a note that in theory causes some sort of vertical clash there are many ways to make it sound extremely consonant as part of a melodic line, besides resolving it up or down a half step. Originally Posted by JonR
The difference between MM and dorian is more than the 7 being flat or natural. The leading tone gives us a G major triad in this case, or G dominant chord, and a B note over the Cm7 can easily just be part of some overlapped harmonic sequence that's really just V to i.
Also a reality is that comping isn't always whole notes held out...
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The music doesn't have to line up vertically as long as the line has integrity from start to finish. That means you can linger on those intervals that are a half step away from intervals in the accompaniment. #7 on m7 chords, as long as the line is a complete music statement that makes sense in context(a sensible follow-up from the previous statement) and is played with good time and conviction.
You can even make #7s work on dom7th chords. Trane did it a lot.
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How could MM be wrong to play over a tonic minor chord? If anything, it should be higher up on your list of choices than dorian.
Dorian is the second mode of the major scale. When thinking in terms of functionality, first of all, a ii chord has a subdominant function (think of it also as a respelling of a iv chord. FACE, iv, and DFAC, ii, share 3 out of four notes, and the three notes they share are the subdominant triad). On the other hand, a vi chord, or a iii chord, have more of a tonic function. Think of CEGB as I. EGBD shares three of the four notes. ACEG also shares three of the four notes. So which of these is a better option for a substitution? The answer is technically both are equally right, however, each one has it's different use where it works better on. EGBD shares the three latter notes of the tonic Cmajor7, making it more of an extension. Even if the bass player plays an E while you play this chord, it's going to sound as a simple substitution. Think of Rhythm Changes, when you sub the I chords in the first 4 bars for the III chord, even if the bass player plays the root of the III with the sub, it still kind of sounds like a I.
ACEG shares the three notes of the Cmaj triad. This can work as two things, a major 6 chord, or a minor "tonic" vi chord.
Now, think of this. The 6th scale degree is the relative minor key of the major key, and out of the entire major scale modes, the only two scale degrees with actual keys are the 1st scale degree, and the 6th (modes don't have actual keys, as we all know). Therefore, the tonic minor chord would be equivalent to the 6th scale degree of the major scale.
In most contexts, it is perfectly acceptable to interchange any of the three tonic minor scales (harmonic, melodic, and natural minor are considered tonic minor scales). I often suggest my students that when playing a tune, and comping on a tonic minor chord, they should listen carefully. I suggest beginners to play triads, and as they get further, they can either add a major 6 or 7 interval, depending on how the soloist is playing.
So anyways, the reason MM and HM work so well over tonic chords (definitely better than dorian, and as well as natural minor) is because of the leading tones they contain. The major 6 on the MM scale creates even more push towards the resolution. Although it does not create a dominant chord tone, it creates the tonic minor 6 sound. It also creates some stronger subdominant chords. The major 7 resolves much, much stronger than the b7 to the tonic. In fact, in conventional theory, you're expected to use HM in almost all cases when harmonizing, and for exactly one reason. The #7 creates the possibility for dominant chords, the #7 can be the third in a V7 chord, and the root of a fully diminished 7th chord. Natural minor creates a minor v chord, which is pretty much never used, and does not create a diminished 7th chord.
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Saying wrong or right would imply there is a reference for making your decision. There are many theoretical references for using C-7 as tonic or I- and then creating relationships with MM.
With jazz harmony there are many other choices besides maj/min functional harmony and basic guidelines. Function may have different guidelines, different guidelines for harmonic or chordal movement. Just using different modal harmonic functional guidelines opens more options for creating relationships with different outcomes because of different guidelines.
Using an organized modal interchange method of creating relationships can also set up different functional guidelines.
Function in music is just how and why chords move, go where they go. When we use right or wrong we're using some type of functional guideline to base our decision on. If we just say we like or dislike... who cares about all the BS.
Personally I have the modal interchange door open all the time, and I use common jazz practice as basic reference for choosing what I like. So my organization for creating functional guidelines... how I justify theoretically where and how the harmony moves or not... standard Maj/Min functional harmony with the addition of jazz usage of modal interchange, which gives me many more options for creating functional guidelines. I create multi levels of functional guidelines, which creates many more options for creating relationships and then developing.
I-7... can become any chord I choose, depending on how I organize those relationships... That organization generally reflects how good or bad it sounds.... I can easily create analysis to explain function, to justify relationship. But that may not make it sound good or bad
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Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
Great description AL
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OK... now define what gives a melodic line integrity. What makes a melodic line a complete statement in any context.
When we use our ear and decide what sounds good or right... why is that?
Is it magic... your in the moment or locked in rhythmically, melodically and harmonically, your feeling the music, your creative juices are pouring out...and it naturally happens. You've played the line so many times before... you don't need to think or understand why.
I don't know... any or none of the above.
Personally... what sounds good or right... is.... or has... a relationship with same tonality of accompaniment.
That doesn't mean the same diatonic set of notes or harmony as the accompaniment... it just means there is a relationship that has a reference to that accompaniment. The further away from the accompaniment tonality, or tonal implications of that accompaniment you develop relationships, (your improve), the better your organization or/and ears needs to be.
example... organizing or using that Maj 7th on min 7th chords with reference to V chord or any other diatonic, secondary or extended reference.... or using as I do modal interchange relationships is common practice... but using constant structure or multi tonic tonal systems requires much more skill or organization, or begins to sound bad or wrong...
How many ways can you organize how you use a note(s) or line.
1) Melodically
2) harmonically
3) rhythmically
4) articulations and/or dynamics
5) form or organization of performance
6) arrangement or orchestration
7) conviction of performance
? I'm sure there are more... too boring or too much work... I'm tired of BS.
Reg
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People will play an A minor pentatonic over an A7 all day long and never ask why it works, so.....
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Teh Blooz! Originally Posted by Spirit59
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If you are playing a C melodic minor type melody over a Cm7 chord and it sounds good to you (that is, that's the way you hear it) then don't stress about whether or not it is theoretically correct or not. Melodies don't like to be fenced in... They like to go where they go, not where the theory says they should go.
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Yup, that's what I thought as well. Blues scales, or blues notes, to be precise, are lowered chord tones, right? lowered 3rd, 5th, and yes, even the occasional lowered b7 (M6th).... all bluesy sounds. But so is the lowered ROOT ! It's the "bebop" note after all, but even as an addition to the blues scale, against either min7 or Dom7, it simply can't sound wrong. although on descent I usually prefer to use the #7 as an approach to tonic. Eg = against Am7 or A Dom7 - e, Eb ,d, c, g#, a , g e etc Originally Posted by Spirit59
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Interesting. I've never thought of the M7 as a lowered root, but that makes a lot of sense, Originally Posted by princeplanet
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