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since you can move the 3 to the 4 and call it a 11 chord. when do you call it a sus4 chord?
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06-10-2013 11:26 AM
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To me, sus4 implies no 3rd.
11th has a 3rd and a 4th (11th) (and a 7th and 9th are fair game)
sus4 is R, 4, 5. 7sus4 is R,4,5,b7
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in my mel bay guitar method book it says "the easiest way to create a eleventh chord is to raise the third of a 7th chord one half step. Note the absence of the third in all but one of the eleventh forms."
is the 3 important in the 11 sound?
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It can be but IMO it's not essential. Guitar chords are often a compromise between what's implied and what is actually played, and the 4/11 in a dominant 11 chord is far more important than the 3rd. It's largely a matter of physically fingering the notes on the guitar -- an 11th chord has 6 notes in theory, only 4 or 5 of which are plausible to play on the guitar at any one time, so something has to give. A nice easy 11th chord voicing for the guitar is root 7 9 11 e.g. G11 = GxFACx It could be played with the 3rd = GBFACx but that voicing probably involves use of the thumb to grab the G. Unless you got 6 fingers.
Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
Sus4 or 7sus4 in a chart on the other hand often suggest quartal harmony where the 3rd might ruin the ambiguous sound of quartal chords. Not that the 3rd is absolutely verboten, just not necessarily a good idea.
That's how I see it at any rate. YMMV
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Sus4 = 1,5,-7,4
11th = 1,-7,9,11
That's they way I've always understood it. But there's also the Minor 11. Just move the 9 up a half step to make it a minor 3rd.
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The third makes more appearances in min11 and Dom7#11 chords than in Maj11 or Dom11 chords because it isn't rubbing against the 11th. You're more likely to hear the 3rd in Maj11 or Dom11 chords in more modern jazz, because ears are getting used to this dissonance, over time.
I'm thinking of chords in general here (piano etc), not just what you can grab on guitar.
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a) In major keys, a (major triad with) 11 is a dominant chord, containing or implying a minor 7, whereas (major triad with) sus 4 is a tonic (unless context indicates otherwise), so they're two different things (though an 11 is sometimes notated as 7sus4). I could be wrong, but I think minor triads plus 4 are always or at least usually considered 11s, except for i, perhaps because the sevenths are all minor sevenths except for i, again.
b) Mark Levine (about whose books I am becoming a bit of a bore, I realise, sorry, but they're fresh in my mind) doesn't even distinguish very much and calls them both "sus chords." He does say that the 11 not including the third is a myth, sorry Mr B. Reading between the lines, though, and looking at the period (since the 60s) and sort of players (H. Hancock, J. Coltrane) he is talking about, I think he is really saying that it is no longer true, it's one of those 'rules' that have fallen into disuse. What he actually says is " Jazz pianists often voice the third with a sus chord" and adds that "the third is voiced above the fourth" because doing it the other way round produces a "much more dissonant chord."
Anyway, guitarists holding a single chord will have to omit the third nine times out of ten or more unless you specifically want to bring it out, perhaps as a melody note, but if you're playing around with the chords there's no reason to avoid it.
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7sus4 would mean no tritone, so it 's not going to be strong as a dom7, but an 11 could give you that tritone for a better dom7 function. With piano, I think it would relate more to the left hand using the 3 in an 11 chord, and no 3 with a sus4...
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No tritone means not as strong a pull to the tonic, but it still has the feel of some kind of resolution: Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
F/G [G11(no 3rd)] to CMaj7: 3x321x x3200x
Green Dolphin Street: Db/C to C: 8x666x 8x555x
Gb9sus4 to CMaj7: 3x656x x3545x
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Why's that, you mean no third? I expect it's me, but I don't see why a 4 excludes the third more than an 11 does, seems just as valid in one case as the other. Unless the 4 is a kind of augmented third, which could be but I don't remember ever hearing about it. There are lots of gaps in my musical education, of course. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
As far as using the third in the piano left hand goes, I don't think that could be done if you were following Levine's recommendation of playing the fourth below the third. To play a G11 with the fifth as the lowest bass note you'd still have to play D at the bottom, then the C above that, then the B above that, all with one hand. To put the root at the bottom, well...
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About an octave difference. The rub between a 3rd and a 4th (minor 2nd) is very different than between a 3rd and 11 (minor 9th) over an octave away. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
Last edited by docbop; 06-10-2013 at 09:53 PM.
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As with anything in music, there is no hard strict rule. Traditionally, sus4 chords always had the 4th resolve to the 3rd. The term "suspended" meant exactly that --- a note (typically from a previous chord) was suspended over into the next chord, and thus that next chord was temporarily a sus4, until the 4th resolved to the 3rd. It's worth noting that there were several types of suspended chords. A sus4 was actually called sus4-3 since it always resolved to the 3rd, and there was also sus 9-8, sus 7-6 and maybe another one that escape me at the moment.
In modern music sus4 and sus2 chords are typically played without resolving to the 3rd, although you can resolve if you want too! Strictly speaking, you almost never see a Major or Dominant 11 type chord. The only chord that regularly is used as an 11th chord is a minor 11. That's because the 11 (4) doesn't clash with the 3rd because they are a whole step apart (rather than a half-step like the major version).
But...there is no such thing as a "rule" in music. You are perfectly welcome to play a major11 chord with both the 3rd and 4th in it, if you please. I've heard of high level jazz musicians doing this, but I can't remember off the top of my head who. It's just not very commonly used. Many people will tell you the 4th over a major chord type is an "avoid" note. Some may even tell you it's "wrong", but that's a stupid thing to say when we are talking about art. Because many people avoid using it though, some people purposely target it to stand out. It's a very dissonant note over a major chord with the 3rd in it, especially if it's in the same octave as the third. As always, use your ear to guide you --- you may want the particular type of dissonance it creates, or you may not.
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I see it two ways:
Sus4 - Does not have a third, and has a 4th, not an 11th, meaning it's basic structure does not have a 7th. It can have a 7th, I play sus chords even with the 9 in them sometimes. The main thing though is the function, which tends to be dominant, such as F/G functioning similarly to a G7.
11 chord - the 11th is an extended sound, meaning not necessary. Does not have a dominant function as opposed to the sus chord, could be tonic or subdominant. I'm not speaking for #11 chords, or major 11 chords. I don't play natural 11's on my major chords generally, and #11's I consider to be alterations.
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As a hack composer, I like to use chord notation for harmony vs notating it. Correct interpretation means everything.
Eleventh chord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Suspended chord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The historical use of "sus4" meaning a suspended note that will resolve down to the 3rd in a nonce, is just that, historical.
Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 06-11-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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Or as a guitar player I admire once told me: "sus chords had to resolve, until the Spring of 1965."
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Aha! Good stuff, thanks, especially about the jazz sus or dominant 9sus4, new to me. Sometimes I wonder how anyone knew anything before Wikipedia. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Wherein it is written: "In modern jazz, a third can be added to the chord voicing, as long as it is above the fourth.[4]" Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
That reference [4] is to Humphries, Carl (2002). The Piano Handbook.
Case closed?
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Levine goes on at length about the b9sus4. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
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He does, Big Daddy, I didn't think it was the same thing, hang on I'll look it up. Nope, it isn't. Levine's b9sus4 is his Phrygian chord (and mode, when fleshed out), E b9sus4 (no third) or G7/E. The Wikipedia chord is a natural 9 sus4, it says it can also be a slash chord (the example is G9sus4=F/G) but a different one (E9sus4 would be D/E, I think?) and I haven't really worked out its implications or usefulness yet. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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E9sus4 = E A B D F#, so you could notate it D/E or Bm7/E. (I like Bm7/E -- as Levine says, it's a ii-V in a single chord.) It wants to resolve to A. Scale-wise, the most natural one is E mixo with G# as an avoid note (For people who dislike CST and "avoid" notes, my bad.)
Eb9sus4 = E A B D Fnat. You're right, it's the "Phrygian chord", so scale-wise you could go E Phrygian or the second mode of D Melodic Minor (= E Phrygian with C#). I think of Eb9sus4 as the "minor" version of E9sus4, but just as the altered chord can also resolve to the major tonic, so Eb9sus4 can resolve to either A major or A minor. If I were more careful, the succeeding A major/A minor might be anticipated in the choice of playing C#/Cnat over Eb9sus4.
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Yes, I realise. When I say I haven't really worked out its implications or usefulness yet, I think I mean that, according to Wikipedia, this, 9sus4 (not 7sus4 or 13sus4) is the jazz sus chord. So what's the difference? What's special about the 9 here, in combination with the 4? Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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I see what you mean. "The" jazz sus chord sounds like an overstatement to me. The difference between 9sus4 and 7sus4 seems like a choice of voicings. I have started calling F/G "the" Metheny chord. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
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Maybe, but the references quoted in the Wikipedia article specifically for the "jazz sus" name are Levine's Jazz Piano and the Humphries, Carl (2002). The Piano Handbook that you referred to a few posts ago (is it worth getting for use without a piano? the Levine totally is). Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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I was just repeating the Wiki reference. I haven't looked into The Piano Handbook.
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