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The first three chords are Fm7 | Bb13b9 | Ebmaj7
Here is a chart:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_juUmZMs0pW...Too+Easily.JPG
1) Why is there a b9 on this chord given that the melody is the root?
2) I play an arpeggio over this. The only scale choice seems to be harmonic major. How do you folks handle that?
Thanks in advance.
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05-16-2013 07:46 PM
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1) For additional color
2) Other choices are Ab melodic minor (missing the 3rd but has both # and b9) and, more commonly, perhaps, diminished (W/H from Ab).
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a b9 chord, as M-ster said, can be considered diminished. The 13 with the b9 is also a nice voicing (one of my teachers called it the Jim Hall diminished voicing : xx3454 for g13b9). So technically, the b9 and the melody are both part of the chord, which means its completely right. You can also, like the diminished chord, move it up in minor thirds and it's still the same chord, giving out different extensions replacing the 13.
Also, Jster and M-ster? any relation? :P
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Arpeggiate the chord on the piano, four notes for each mitt:
Bb13b9: [B D F Ab] [Bb Db E G]
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What's a mitt? And I sold the piano when I moved!
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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The changes are basic... II- V7 I IV / VII- II7 VI-( II- V of VI) in Eb or (II V)/bIII bIII bVI II V I- in C-
Don't get hung up on the traditional vertical notes lining up perfectly... Jazz harmony has many more functional and harmonic references that are... or can be going on. The Relative maj and Min relationship is majority of the tune
Just as melodies are embellished... so are changes. The notated chords on lead sheets are guide lines to pull from.
They imply a starting reference to comp from.
So that Bb13b9 is just telling you the V chord is part of harmonic concept... can be Har. Maj, dim reference, can be in relationship to G7alt to C-, (the Bb13b9 is using that relative relationship, the min3rd to G7altered)...that point is don't play vanilla version or basic functional changes.
Reg
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Can you expand on this Reg? So we see that Galt coming, so we don't play vanilla. Cool. So are harm-maj, diminished both non-vanilla? So we are required to play non-vanilla, but we have a choice between harm-maj, diminished, etc.? Originally Posted by Reg
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I hate to say this, and I hope I am not taken as denigrating anyones playing or explanations. But unfortunetly if you ask reg to explain what he is trying to communicate...I don't think he is willing to do that.
For instance this: You Don't Know What Love Is
This is just my interpretation based on questions asked of his theory's and non answers given by him.
I hope I'm wrong.Last edited by edh; 05-17-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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I wonder what ever happened to Kevin. I saw his posts in that other thread and didn't realize they were 2 and a half years old at first.
Anyway, to stay on topic to this thread, Kevin said "The HW diminished sounds good too, giving a 13b9 sound." which is nice because the diminished scales lay out really easily on the guitar.
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I'm wondering whether the minor 3rd relationship that Reg was talking about gives us some reason to use HW. Originally Posted by jckoto3
I can do different things on different chords--arps, alt scale, HW, other modes--and usually I can make them sound OK. What I'm trying to understand now is how to have a more global understanding. So in this tune, how does what I play on bar2 relate to what I play on bar 6?Last edited by jster; 05-17-2013 at 10:05 PM.
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Hey Jster...
I'll try and expand on The G7 altered relationship...
So the basic changes are clear... right, II V I, F-7 to Bb7 to Ebma7. And the relative minor version of this chord pattern could be D-7b5 to G7b13#9 to C-7. So a possible set of subs... Functional subs, (as compared to Tritone Subs).
The point I'm trying to make... the notated changes are not vanilla version of II V I. Not that vanilla versions of II V I's are bad... But if you playing the melody or comping or soloing.... Bb13b9 generally requires something different than the basic collection of notes...There are lots of choices. The rest of the changes for the version of are not vanilla either. Again I'm not using vanilla as bad... just different. But non standard chord patterns have implications also.
Some players like to use organizational methods of how they add or change the basic harmony and melodic usage. Some don't... they use random embellishments, or add chromatic notes... approach chords etc...
What's the organization of using Harmonic Maj, or Diminished. I have a few methods of organization. But what would be yours. No right or wrong, but is this in your thought process. Do you need to be told, or can you put the pieces together yourself? I wasn't implying Harm. maj or Dim are vanilla... I was implying that the changes implied something besides Vanilla or basic diatonic harmony.
The reference to using G7alt... is while soloing you can also pull from relative minor on major as source of harmonic movement. So when playing through F-7 to Bb7 to Ebmaj7.... you can pull from D-7b5 to G7altered to C-7.
The use of vanilla implies the basic reference.... Straight chord tones with no other harmonic organizational concept other than Maj/min functional harmony... not bad... basic or starting reference.
Hey edh... since you seem to have problems with my approaches and explanations... or lack of maybe... you could weight in on what's going on...
Reg
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actually, he described rather clearly what he was talking about in post 14 of that thread, if one were seeking understanding, rather than that sort of disputation that kevin was so fond of... Originally Posted by edh
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Soooooooooo, I have been working on this some more. I realized that I forgot about the 4th!!!! So it seems the whole arpeggio is the melodic major scale. I'm sorry, but that is too many notes for a poor guy like me.
So, when you guys were giving me options for what to do, are we assuming that all seven of those notes are ringing out (say from the piano)? That is kind of what is going on over here at Jster Studios since all I do is plug the changes into BIAB.Last edited by jster; 05-19-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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Can anybody help a brother out? I needs to know before I can get back in the shed. Originally Posted by jster
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I'd say no. What exactly are you trying to do? Originally Posted by jster
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I put those changes into BIAB and now I am trying to improvise over it using ever possible choice of arps/scales to see how much difference there is. One thing is following up what Reg said about viewing the first four bars in relation to the second four bars; you actually were the first to mention the Galt/Abmelmin over the Bb13b9; so there I'm treating bars 1-3 as though they were bars 5-8. So I'm just trying to get all the possibilities down and see what differences I hear. But then I realized that the 13 contains a 4 and that I hadn't been taking that into account.
So when you say "no", what you are really saying is that if I'm using BIAB and trying different possibilities, then for a tune like this, I need to program that second chord differently depending on what pool of notes I want to use to solo?
I'm not as hung up on it as I may sound. But I was trying to get a list to try out of every way of soloing over the tune/first 8 bars/first 4 bars/just the stinkin Bb13b9.
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What's the melodic major scale? Originally Posted by jster
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Typo. Sorry.
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I don't think it's what the OP meant (as it has a natural 9 and flat 13), but this is the first place I've ever heard of it several years ago: Originally Posted by whatswisdom
The Melodic Scales
Also known as the 5th mode of the melodic minor scale. Probably has a half-dozen other names as well...
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As I said at the beginning, the Bb13b9 chord is contained in a harmonic major scale, in particular the Eb harmonic major scale, the notes of which are 1 2 3 4 5 b6 7, ie Eb F G Ab Bb Cb D.
When I said melodic major later on, that was just a typo.
And my question is not about this scale.
Rather, it is about the chord. Are we supposed to imagine all seven notes of Bb13b9 ringing out when we are considering different options for soloing over it?
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Hey, jckoto3 - Thanks for this. Interesting. I've always known it as Mixolydian b6. Never even heard the "melodic major" term before this. Originally Posted by jckoto3
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Reiterating what I said in post #15, no, you're not necessarily "supposed to imagine all seven notes ringing out." If you had (or heard, or imagined) seven notes in your chord voicing, you'd have an entire scale spelled out, and your first option of what scale to use essentially would be predetermined. Originally Posted by jster
If you wanted to voice the 11th on your Bb13b9, you'd likely avoid the natural 11 (Eb) in favor of #11 - which is *really* tipping the scale (pun) towards diminished. Conversely, if you were willing to drop the 3rd in favor of a sus4 sound (say Ab-maj7/Bb), then you could get the Eb in there. Now you're leaning towards the Ab mel minor choice. And, finally, if you're thinking key-centers, then you're going to try to retain Eb major with the exception of that pesky b9 in the chord symbol, which leads to your original Eb harm major solution.
I'd say imagine just the 3rd and 7th "ringing out" with the Bb in the bass. Then listen to what your scale options provide for you, melodically, as you navigate through that change.
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Thank you very much M-ster. You are always right to the point and I appreciate that very much.
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Yes, it fits the 5th mode of harmonic major, but a 13b9 is the classic usage of the diminished scale ... i.e. Bb half-whole symmetrical diminished. Originally Posted by jster
It gives the following chord tones: root, b2, #2, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7.... Bb Cb C# D E F G Ab.
I don't know exactly what you mean, but the answer is no in any case. If by "different options" you mean scale choices, then the fully extended scale will obviously produce different chord tones depending on the scale. No need to imagine anything, you'll hear it when you play those notes.Rather, it is about the chord. Are we supposed to imagine all seven notes of Bb13b9 ringing out when we are considering different options for soloing over it?
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