What scale over chords?

[Reg]

That's a pretty straight ahead set of relationships. The visual is not that functional, you can simplify many of the choices by referencing the source for relationships.

? V7/VII-7b5... and usually that chart has V7's of all 12 notes with one tonal center reference... and then the others.

The other aspect... most, many jazz players don't base all relationships and their references on Functional Harmony, granted it's one organized source... but there are other methods for creating organized function.

This could be one of the reasons you had trouble or didn't like possibilities with Functional Dominants, you were using different base reference for determining functional dominants complete note collections.

We're obviously getting into complex harmonic relationships... but only in respect to layers of references... still basic guidelines of function.... (not voice leading).

But who really cares... lets post some examples of playing Scrapple and Speak Low with different applications. Way more interesting...

Reg

[Staggs89]

The "Speak low" tune is popular ( at least to me ) in that the melody begins on the 9th of the Gm9 chord and is retained as the 13th above C7 chord. This sequence is applied again in the 9th measure with Bbm9th followed by Eb13.

In thinking Dorian mode ( which is what's happening here ) it as much, what to stay away from, as it is what to emphasize.
Too many players point out the interval dim. 5th in their playing, ( Bb - E ) which is one of the intervals we would rather not
hear. The whole appeal of the Dorian mode is the 7th degree of the scale of Gm7 is flat. As a matter of choice we stay away
from any outline of the Bb and E, not because of strictly melodic considerations, but because we don't like the sound.
It is very old fashioned! Instead we emphasize the Pentatonic and minor and major thirds as well as 4ths and 5ths contained
in the pallette. Another no - no in Dorian is to have too many chromatic neighboring tones enter during a solo.
You destroy the Dorian sound scape by adding too many notes which are outside the palette. Yes, it makes it much easier
to get around and busy sounding, but limiting ones notes to the mode at hand with few alterations is the key.

Check out Freddie Hubbard albums on CTI

[Spirit59]

The "Speak low" tune is popular ( at least to me ) in that the melody begins on the 9th of the Gm9 chord and is retained as the 13th above C7 chord. This sequence is applied again in the 9th measure with Bbm9th followed by Eb13.

In thinking Dorian mode ( which is what's happening here ) it as much, what to stay away from, as it is what to emphasize.
Too many players point out the interval dim. 5th in their playing, ( Bb - E ) which is one of the intervals we would rather not
hear. The whole appeal of the Dorian mode is the 7th degree of the scale of Gm7 is flat. As a matter of choice we stay away
from any outline of the Bb and E, not because of strictly melodic considerations, but because we don't like the sound.
It is very old fashioned! Instead we emphasize the Pentatonic and minor and major thirds as well as 4ths and 5ths contained
in the pallette. Another no - no in Dorian is to have too many chromatic neighboring tones enter during a solo.
You destroy the Dorian sound scape by adding too many notes which are outside the palette. Yes, it makes it much easier
to get around and busy sounding, but limiting ones notes to the mode at hand with few alterations is the key.

Check out Freddie Hubbard albums on CTI

The Speak Low that I'm familiar with doesn't have anything to do with the dorian mode...

I tried to find a version by Freddie Hubbard but came up empty handed....

[Staggs89]

Unbelieveable! All music is not in the key of "C"! Gm7 uses the dorian scale (mode) , as it is the II chord of FMajor
( the key & chord ) which is the I & tonic, and also called the Ionian in the key of Fmajor. Any II chord of a Major scale
has as it's corresponding scale - the Dorian mode.

[Spirit59]

Unbelieveable! All music is not in the key of "C"! Gm7 uses the dorian scale (mode) , as it is the II chord of FMajor
( the key & chord ) which is the I & tonic, and also called the Ionian in the key of Fmajor. Any II chord of a Major scale
has as it's corresponding scale - the Dorian mode.

Well, I can see from BigDaddyLovHandles's post that we're probably talking about the same tune....

So when you encounter a ii7-V7 in a tune, you use the Dorian mode off the ii7 chord as your go-to note pool?

Any way you could post a clip of you doing that - I'd be interested in hearing some of that....

[Staggs89]

Well, I can see from BigDaddyLovHandles's post that we're probably talking about the same tune....

So when you encounter a ii7-V7 in a tune, you use the Dorian mode off the ii7 chord as your go-to note pool?

Any way you could post a clip of you doing that - I'd be interested in hearing some of that....

Yes - (most of the time)to your question. In Speak Low, since the Gm9th lasts for quite some time, I would not think
of resolving the flat 7th of the II chord until the very last moment, which is when we go to the C7 or V chord in bar 6 - 3rd and 4th beats. I'll try and post a pdf file or two in here to demonstrate. In measures 9 thru 12 we have a simular situation
only in the key of Ab major. The Bbm9 to Eb13 is II - V in the key of AbMajor. This is a shift of tonality from an FMajor tonal
center, to a tonal center built on the minor four chord of F Major - namely Bb minor. The changes of course imply the
II - V of Ab Major. Playing in Bb Dorian during these 4 bars is the norm! ( Bbm9, Eb13, Bbm9, Eb13 )

[Spirit59]

Playing in Bb Dorian during these 4 bars is the norm! ( Bbm9, Eb13, Bbm9, Eb13 )

I'd sure like to hear that!

[Staggs89]

Trying to upload a couple of Speak Low pdf files.Speak Low.pdf Just a quick melodic invention ( written improvisation ) of the tune Speak low. I hope it shows up!

[Staggs89]

One of my favorite jazz musicians ( of all time! ) - Harold Land's transcribed solo of Speak Low from an early album.SpeakLowHaroldLand.pdfSpeakLowHaroldLand.pdf Check it out!

[AmundLauritzen]

It is my experience that it is best to keep in mind the overall tonal center you are in, in determining the scale tones to use.

In otherwords - the Am7 chord if in CMajor, or FMajor or GMajor or Dminor, would all have slight variants.

I haven't read much anywhere in these jazz forums about the significance of the leading tone of a chord along with it's 2nd
degree, to really establish the minor root as a temporary tonal center, which is what we jazz players have been doing for decades!

YES! And this is equally important for dominant sevenths. Some dom7ths have an affinitiy for unaltered sounds, or only slightly altered sounds. Like a backdoor cadence prefers lydian dominant over the altered scale. Back door cadence is like a subdominant minor after the diatonic subdominant major to get back to the tonic ieg: Cmaj7 Fmaj7 Fm7 Bb7 Cmaj7. In this case the Bb7 prefers Bb lydian dominant or you can say F melodic minor which is more true to the sound - IV minor.

The thing is, most people would think altered scale for that, but the altered scale then pulls towards some kind of Eb chord!
I guess you could play the altered scale and get back to C somehow, absolutely possible, but the natural harmonic flow suggests lydian dominant.

The same way a dominant chord built on the second degree prefers certain scales over others - take the D7b5 in "Take the A train". That one wants the whole tone scale, partially due to tradition in regards to that specific tune but also because it's a scale whose harmonic pull is relevant to the tonal area of C major and NOT G major, which is where D7 would pull if it functioned as a V7 and not a II7 which it is in this case.

Dominant III chord, like an E7 in the key of C usually prefers harmonic minor(E phrygian dominant) because the scale addresses the third in the chord and except from that keeps true to the tonal area of C. It also usually goes to Am7 or A7 in this context which the leading tone pulls towards. But in this case, the altered scale is a good choice, actually more idiomatic to jazz than the harmonic minor.

So there are no rules set in stone for dom7th because due to their harmonic pull, one can take many liberties. But adhering to how the dominant sevenths behave in the tonal center, certain sounds sound more natural than others.
A good player can make anything work though.

[Staggs89]

Thank you Amund! As Mister J.S. Bach was the master of tone leading and harmonic progression - he even broke his own
rules occasionally to suit a situation, whether for melodic considerations or it just sounded better a certain way.

Another area that is a pet peeve of mine is the handling of the III ( three ) chord. Here again the scale of the chord is going
to be dependent upon the tonal surrounding harmony ( in most cases ).

Dm7 in BbMajor ( III chord ) is going to have totally different scale from Dm7 in CMajor, or EbMajor, or Gminor, or ? Some people will always take a different road to the destination just to be different ( for variety or entertainment maybe ), but the natural flow of harmonic and melodic invention dictate that we observe our surroundings and make the journey as smooth as possible.

Awkward skips or bumps in the road are to be avoided. This necessitates altering the scale in the above Dm7 chord to fit
the surrounding tonality.

I would like to hear how you think on this matter.
Thank you.

[marcwv]

Was it mentioned yet ? where are you comming from and were are you going!Oh and last and not least is it musical?
Marc
P.S. couldn't read throught the whole thread to see if these points were covered

[Staggs89]

Points covered somewhat in Amund's posts.

The III ( three ) chord of Bb Major is D minor seventh! Just saying that the scale of that chord will NOT be Ddorian
( as if in C Major ), but even though we have the chord as D,F,A,C, the scale of that chord will be D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb,C,D.

[Spirit59]

Points covered somewhat in Amund's posts.

The III ( three ) chord of Bb Major is D minor seventh! Just saying that the scale of that chord will NOT be Ddorian
( as if in C Major ), but even though we have the chord as D,F,A,C, the scale of that chord will be D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb,C,D.

Maybe in a bubble.

But this being a "jazz" board, you're very likely to run into a Dm7 chord in Bb that can and is treated as a ii7 chord, as it could be in Bb rhythm changes, where it may precede a G7 - just another ii7-V7

Either way, "Dorian" ain't gonna cut it.

[Staggs89]

No Kidding?!

[Spirit59]

Wood eye kidde ewe?