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I can't play any jazz guitar yet, but I'm really trying to figure this stuff out here. What I want to be able to do is improvise jazzy sounding solos over jazz guitar rhythms. I am a competent improviser in terms of rock guitar, I guess, being that I am comfortable improvising solos in the major/minor scales, which I guess are technically Ionian and Locrian? I think. Anyway, here is what I've never been able to figure out about modes.
Let's say we're in the key of C major. To solo in Ionian I start on the C and the scale goes C D E F G A B. Dorian here starts on the D and goes D E F G A B C. Remembering that we are in the key of C major, to solo over C major in Locrian do I solo in the with D E F G A B C, stressing the D notes? Phrygian would be E F G A B C D stressing the E notes? Etc... Or is there another way you're supposed to do it?
What I just explained is how I understand modes, but I'm not sure if that's right or not. I'm a very visual learner so all the reading I've done is mostly confusing. This is probably very broad, but I don't know what I'm doing and have always been afraid of theory.
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05-02-2013 02:03 PM
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If you want to sound jazzy, this is not the place to start.
I'm not sure I get the idea of soloing over major using Locrian...
I think modes supply a lot of unecessary confusion to a jazz beginner...better to start with chords, arpeggios, and learn songs.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Locrian was just an example of one of the modes. As I understand it, bebop scales are based in ionian, dorian, or mixolydian. But, whatever, I'm just trying to understand if my example is how modes work.
I can play some songs minus the solos, like "So What", "Work Song", I can play "4 on 6" sort of. I know a lot of chords and do not have trouble learning new ones. You're probably right, though, it might be best to start with other stuff, I've just been trying to figure out modes on and off for 15 years.
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A good place to start is improvising over IIm7 V7 I Maj7 (or I6) using e major scale of I. Don't worry about "modes" just try to make it sound good to you. Do this in all keys.
Use a play along program and set it toa very comfortable tempo.
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Yes, don't worry about modes and avoid modal jazz (So What) to begin with.
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This is my take on modes for what it's worth - the real jazz players are going to kill me. Modes are ways of explaining why the major scale sounds good over chords that are not major chords.
For example, the C major scale sounds good over the following chords - Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5. Of course, it will have a different kind of sound over each of those chords and there will be different notes of the scale that you will want to land on and ones that you want to use as passing notes, but in general, the scale will work over those chords. So, when you're playing a C major scale over a Dm7 chord, and emphasizing the chord tones of the Dm7 chord, someone is going to say that you are playing in the D dorian mode. And so on.
In my view, you are way better off learning diatonic chord scales and arpeggios - ie if you build a chord off every note in the major scale the will always follow the same pattern - Imaj7, IIm7, IIIm7, IVmaj7, V7, VIm7, VIIm7b5. The notes of the tonic major will work on all of those chords and the arpeggios of all of those chords will work on every other chord with varying degrees of awesomeness.
So, step one (which I gather you have already done) is learn the major scales. Step two is learn the 7th arpeggios along with the diatonic chord scales and then you're off to the races.
By the way, the names of the modes are in the following order in the "key" of C - C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian. The natural minor scale is Aeolian - not Locrian.
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Originally Posted by Petimar
Yeah, I'm doing this with the Matt Warnock playlist on Spotify. I'm not sounding great, but I'm realizing I just need to put in the work.
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Originally Posted by ColinO
I know what arpeggios are, I just don't have a lot of knowledge about how to utilize them. I'm very confident in my major scales, so I guess I'll look into this 7th arpeggio business and diatonic chord scales. Maybe my issue is that I need to work on phrasing more than theory.
Anyway, good call on my natural minor mistake. Thanks for the advice. I'm realizing now I should have posted this in the beginner thread. Sorry about that.
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If you want to sound jazzy, please start addressing us as "cats".
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Never be sorry. We're all beginners.
A little tip on learning arpeggios - there are really only a three different shapes for playing each arpeggio (ie Maj7, min7, dom7 and min7b5) in their root positions. Learn each arpeggio starting on the root with your 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers in one octave at a time and you will have learned them all. Bear in mind that for the second string you have to compensate up one fret. For example with respect to major arpeggios:
I) starting on 2ndfinger
Cmaj7
-------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------4-----5-------------
-------------2---------------------5------------
------------------3----------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
Gmaj7
--------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------4-----5-------------
-------------2---------------------5------------
------------------3----------------------------
Fmaj7
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------5---6------------
-------------2---------------------5------------
------------------3----------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
Bbmaj7
----------------------------------5-----6-------------
------------------3---------------------6------------
------------------3----------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
II) starting on 1st finger
Fmaj7
------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
------2---3-----------------------------
-----------3-----------------------------
--1----------------5---------------------
Bbmaj7
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
------2---3-----------------------------
-----------3-----------------------------
--1----------------5---------------------
-----------------------------------------
Ebmaj7
-----------------------------------------
-----------3---4--------------------------
-----------3-----------------------------
--1----------------5---------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Abmaj7
-----------3--4---------------------------
--------------4-----------------------------
--1----------------5---------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
4th Finger
Amaj7
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
--1---2-----------------------------------
------2----------------------------------
----------------4--------------------------
--------------------5---------------------
Dmaj7
-------------------------------------------
------2---3--------------------------------
------2----------------------------------
----------------4--------------------------
--------------------5---------------------
-------------------------------------------
Gmaj7
--------2----3------------------------------
-------------3---------------------------
----------------4--------------------------
--------------------5---------------------
----------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
Cmaj7
-----------3----------------7-----
---------------------5-------------
---------------------5------------
------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
------------------------------------
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How do I know you're not a square, fink, phoney, etc...? Originally Posted by Jonzo
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Originally Posted by ColinO
Thanks. I like these and they're simple. I will get to work on them.
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Are you listening to jazz? Can you play any tunes? Can you hum any solos? Can you play the solos on your instrument?
Start there, then worry about "those impossible modes."
When you do finally get to modes, I think it is much more useful to think of them by their intervals, not in how they can be derived from some scale.
Ionian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
(and then the same for those that are related to harmonic minor, melodic minor, and harmonic major)
Each mode has a characteristic sound. You'll get to the point where a melody or chord progression will sound "dorian" vs. "phrygian." At that point, modes won't seem so impossible. It'll be like seeing navy blue and knowing that it is navy blue and not royal blue.
Best of luck!
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I never claimed to be a hep cat. Originally Posted by shotzi
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Then your understanding is wrong. The original bebop players had no idea what modes were. Mode terms played no part in jazz theory, and certainly not in the thoughts of jazz improvisers, at any time before 1959. Originally Posted by shotzi
Bebop improvisers worked in keys, embellishing melodies with chromaticism, working from chord arpeggios, extensions, and alterations. Big oversimplication, of course, but because they had no concept of modes, modal terminology is no help in understanding how that music works.
Basically no it isn't. If you're "in the key of C major", that means functional harmony, chord progressions. Nothing to do with modal music. Originally Posted by shotzi
If you want a modal term (and you don't need one), it's C ionian mode throughout. Which doesn't mean there won't be chromatics involved, but there won't be any other modes.
OK, "So What" is a modal tune - an exploration of Dorian mode. "Work Song" isn't; it's essentially a blues/gospel tune. Originally Posted by shotzi
"4 on 6" is an interesting transitional tune, combining modal thinking with older functional sequences. Originally Posted by shotzi
Learning the distinction between "functional" and "modal" is a good place to start, IMO. Originally Posted by shotzi
"Functional" = music in "keys", major or minor, usually featuring complex sequences of chords in "progressions" moving through consonance and dissonance, away from and back to a "tonic". ALL jazz before 1959 (and quite a lot since) is based on this system.
"Modal" = slightly misleading term used to describe the kind of jazz first tried by Miles Davis in 1959 on the track "Milestones" and later on some tracks (not all) on "Kind of Blue". Generally distinguished by long vamps on one chord. Where there are chord changes, it's usually to a chord unrelated to the first one, implying a different scale. IOW, chords don't "progress" in a logical chain (creating expectations of what's coming), but kind of jump from one static place (or "mood") to another.
Most jazz of the last 50 years has mixed both concepts, often blurring the distinction (and opening things out with other concepts too), meaning that in modern jazz it may not make much sense to try and define what's going on in those terms. But when we talk about vintage jazz and standards, it's very helpful.
There is certainly a thread running through all jazz, over its whole history, which makes it useful to understand how vintage improvisers (like Charlie Parker, Louis Armstrong, Charlie Christian, Lester Young, etc) worked - and that's melody and embellishment of melody. Modern chord-scale thinking - which derived from modal jazz - played no part in their solos. (We can analyse what they did in chord-scale terms, but it doesn't really explain anything; it doesn't explain their note choices, or why their solos work as they do.)Last edited by JonR; 05-04-2013 at 06:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by Bryan T
Yeah, I listen to a lot of Tal Farlow, Charlie Christian, Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel, etc... I recently discovered Johnny Smith's Moonlight In Vermont album with stan Getz, which I like a lot. I listen to a lot of horn players, too. A lot of Sonny Rollins the past few days. And, yeah, I can hum solos. I don't have any solos memorized. A lot of them intimidating. If someone has a recommendation of a solo that's not too hard to figure out by ear and isn't too super fast and complicated, I'm willing to try and learn it. It's time I dug my heels in and learned a solo, I'm just indecisive.
The number of the notes makes sense to me. I think I've learned a lot about modes since I originally posted this, but I guess there's still a lot to learn. Thanks for the advice.
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Fair enough. Originally Posted by Jonzo
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Originally Posted by JonR
Okay then. I think I understand more than I'm articulating, but I am definitely misrepresenting some theory here, so this is all helpful. Thanks for clearing some things up for me.
I made this post because I wanted to understand how to use modes in improvisation to improve the way my solos sound. As I understand it, and I've been wrong several times in this thread already so maybe I'm wrong again, but, as I understand it, different modes elicit different sounding tones. For example, ionian would sound happy, poppy, pleasant, etc... Another might sound sad. Another mellow and tender, etc... If I were able to utilize that in my soloing I would have better control of the mood the solo is setting. It just seems like a good skill to have. And I did say that I'm just trying to sound "jazzy", but I thought that modes with help, and now I'm realizing they are superfluous at this point. I still want to learn them, but I don't need them to "sound jazzy".
I think that actual modal jazz is a more specific concept than the broader one I was trying to achieve, but, maybe not, and anyway, like everyone has pointed out, there's plenty of more relevant stuff to work on at this point.Last edited by shotzi; 05-04-2013 at 03:56 PM. Reason: I don't understand modes or the English language.
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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Well, you're definitely wrong about illicit sounding tones
The jazz cops will be out to get ya. Watch your back.
"Elicit" is the word you're looking for. Sorry, spelling police.
I think I'll put the guitar down and read the dictionary for a few years. This is not going well.
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I wouldn't worry about modes at this stage. Just learn how to play over a 2-5-1 chord progression first.
So play over Dm7 , G7, Cmaj7 using the notes of C maj scale, but focussing on the chord tones of each chord in turn (root, 3rd, 5th, 7th).
So on Dm7 build phrases around notes D, F, A, C.
On G7 build phrases around notes G, B, D, F.
On C maj it's C, E, G, B.
Try joining the phrases up, so on Dm7 your phrase could end on C, then start your G7 phrase on B. This will flow more smoothly (voice-leading).
That's a very simplified summary, but I would say this is a much better place to start than thinking of it in modes.
And listen to LOADS of jazz otherwise you won't get the 'language' to your playing.
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Originally Posted by shotzi
Yeah, I listen to a lot of Tal Farlow, Charlie Christian, Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel, etc...here, let me help you outI don't have any solos memorized. A lot of them intimidating. If someone has a recommendation of a solo that's not too hard to figure out by ear and isn't too super fast and complicated, I'm willing to try and learn it. It's time I dug my heels in and learned a solo,
if you don't have it already, go grab the classic old Charlie Christian collection "The Genius of Electric Guitar"... shouldn't cost you more than a couple bucks these days
then grab yourself a program that can slow down songs without changing the pitch. Amazing Slow Downer or Transcribe! are both great but i'm sure there are free programs that can do the same thing out there
now go learn a bunch of those Charlie Christian solos. all of his solos lie under the hands pretty nicely, so if you find yourself playing a line with uncomfortable stretches at any point, there's probably an easier way to finger it
"Grand Slam" is a good place to start, but it doesn't matter.
learning a bunch of Charlie Christian solos is exactly how Wes, Kessel, Tal, Jim Hall, and countless other guitarists got their start. it will be challenging, but not impossible, especially with a program like Transcribe! to help
while you're doing that, read the threads on Herb Ellis' books on these very forums. Ellis' books very succinctly describe an approach to playing jazz guitar that comes directly from Christian, based off of chord shapes
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Well, I found modes helpful when I started, but they are maybe a little overrated.
If the key has C = I, D = II, and B = VII, then the corresponding chords are CMaj7, DMin7, and B half diminished. Each of those is a 4-note arpeggio. They also have several common forms as rhythm chords (comping).
They have corresponding scales (or modes) C Ionian, D Dorian, and B Locrian. The reason those modes work over those chords, is they contain the arpeggio notes. It's useful to map out the modes and see where the chord tones lie within.
So, for instance, if the rhythm chord is B half diminished, you can play from B Locrian scale, and it will sound good.
I found this type of thinking useful to start improvising, over SLOW progressions. When chords are flying fast, it makes more sense to go straight to the arpeggios.
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Hey shotzi: this thread *is* going well, thanks mostly to your not getting offended as everyone tells you you are wrong. Originally Posted by shotzi
Here are my 2c: It seems that in the rock guitar world there is a notion that what makes jazz "jazzy" is that jazz guitarists use some super-cool secret "modes" and if you learn them, you can be jazzy too. THis probably comes form the fact that a lot of rock improv is based on choosing a pitch collection which you stick to for the entire solo (with a few bends) and the standard choices are pentatonics, or major scales, and since jazz typically sounds different, it must use different scales.
THe first thing that people learn when they start playing jazz is that this isn't really how improvisation works in jazz (hence all the replies). *You have to address the harmonic movement (changes)*, which is something learning modes doesnt really teach you to do. For example, the pitches in C ionian and D dorian are the same, so focusing on seven different names for the same pitch collection overly complicates things.
eg for a II-V-I in Cmaj (a typical snippet of many jazz tunes) if you thought D dorian/G mixolydian/C ionian you would be thinking too hard: its the same notes. Moreover, In this example, one key to making it jazzy is to use altered tones (#9,b9,#5,b5) on the G7. So if you saw the G7 and didnt realize it was a V chord going to Cmaj, modal thinking is not going to help.
(All of this has is exceptions of course, lots of people will tell you to use the 7th mode of the Ab melodic minor over the G7, and you should figure out why that is right, but this is an "after the fact" trick)
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Harmony is formed by combinations of notes. Note collections. What note collections are relevant?
From a chord symbol the thing most apparent to anyone is the root because it's in the name.
If you understand the formula, that gives you the basic chord tones.
If you know the fingerboard well you can find these chord tones with ease.
If you know the intervals involved you can transpose to all keys.
Shape can be helpful but is a less comprehensive way to access intervals.
Beyond the basic chord tones:
Passing tones, chromatic or scale based or a combination of both.
Cma7
Chromatic: C E G B-----B C Db / D# E F / F# G Ab / A# B C ||
One can construct scales by placing notes into the spaces of a 7th chord.
For Cma7 that involves some kind of D, F and A.
C Db D D# E F F# G Ab A A# B C
What are the common solutions?
C D E F G A B C // C D E F# G A B C //
a bit less common:
C D E F G Ab B C
In my opinion the best path to this knowledge is by learning what harmonies are available from a given scale/note collection. Practice interval scales and chord scales.
When a former passing tone is given rhythmic prominence it becomes integrated into the basic chord fabric, an extension.
9, 11 and 13.
Starting with C E G B we need some kind of D (9), F (11) and A (13)
C E G B--Db D D#--F F#--Ab A A#
drawing from the above scales
C E G B D F A---1 3 5 7 9 11 13
C E G B D F# A--1 3 5 7 9 #11 13
C E G B D F Ab--1 3 5 7 9 11 b13
Knowing the sound that these choices represent takes it out of the realm of mathematics.
Knowing where to find all the notes and intervals makes application possible.
Chords are all members of 3 chord qualities/families.
Major, minor and dominant.
The family members can be drawn from one scale or multiple scales.
A few examples in C Major
C E G B / C E G A / C E G D / C E F# B / C E G B D / E G B D / C E A D / C E A B / F# B E A /
C F G B / C A D F# / C E G# B / etc.
How expansive one can be is tempered by genre. Country music has one set of norms as do different eras of jazz.
The dominant family is the most inclusive of the 3 families.
There are some 5,6, 8 and 9 note scales as well.
Pentatonic, whole tone and diminished being the most widely used.
The blues scale adds important another color to the jazz story.
Beyond the chord symbol in a chart is also the idea of approach chords.
This adds an organized rationalization for the appearance of hard to explain but sound good notes.
The knowledge of what note collections can operate in relation to a set of harmonies is necessary.
The exact path one takes is not that important.
Stay connected to the actual music, the theoretical/descriptive information is always secondary to that.
And then there is rhythm, perhaps the most defining element of jazz.Last edited by bako; 05-05-2013 at 11:33 AM.
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This should not get lost in your long post!!!!!! I wasted years before I fully realized this and have been trying to catch up ever since. Originally Posted by bako
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