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Ok guys I may have gone off the deep end at this point, but I'm having a blast.
1.
Raising any one of the chord tones in a diminished seventh chord by a half step gives you a m7b5 chord:
Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb
raise root = Ebm7b5
raise (flat) third = Gbm7b5
raise (flat) fifth= Am7b5
raise (double flat) seventh = Cm7b5
2.
Bass note C with Eb, Gb, and Bb in a higher register = Cm7b5
Bass note C with Eb, G, and A in a higher register = Am7b5 in first inversion, but alone sounds more obviously like Cm6.
Bass note C with E, Gb, and A in a higher register = Gbm7b5 in second inversion, but doesn't it sound like C lydian when played with no other context?
Bass note C with D, F, and Ab in a higher register = Dm7b5 third inversion, but also a D diminished triad with a C bass note. Almost like setting up for a ii V with a pedal on the I. Or some sort of color voicing, fitting with aeolian, harmonic minor, or harmonic major.
Anybody else find it interesting that the least 'stable' or 'tonicized' of these four options is actually the root position? Subjective, for sure...
To me, the 'root' of a m7b5 chord isn't as clear as it is with maj7, m7, dom7, or even dim7. If you play close voiced m7b5 chords in a high register, there isn't a clear root, a note that seems to be the center of the sound. To my ears, there are three possible roots, as my ears can be just as convinced that its a m6 chord or somewhat ambiguous ma7#11 voicing as they can that it is simply a m7b5.
Also:
Em7b5/C = C9
Gbm7b5/C = Cma13#11 (no 5, no 7)
Gm7b5/C = C7sus4b9
Am7b5/C = Cm6
Bbm7b5/C = C7#5#9
3.
Because of the ambiguity of the structure, the lack of a clear root, I've found it interesting to analyze all the intervals within the chord.
In close voice m7b5 voicings, there are nine possible intervals present between the voices:
Major second and minor seventh (between root and b7)
Major third or minor sixth (between b5 and b7)
Perfect fourth and perfect fifth (between b3 and b7)
Tritone (between root and b5)
Minor third and major sixth can exist in two ways: between the root and the b3 and between the b3 and the b5.
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My interest in the context of this post isn't in knowing how to solo or comp over a m7b5 chord when I see it in a chart, nor is it in recognizing when the chord in the tune I'm listening to is m7b5. Instead, it's an interest in the four note structure and its inversions, aurally recognizing each, as well as finding uses for the structure itself, unaltered.
Chirp chirp
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04-22-2013 11:33 AM
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Isn't this kind of the basis of the Barry Harris system? Although I think he does the conversion from dim7 to dom7 rather than min7b5.
Pretty similar to Martino's whole concept, as well.
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They are observations, they can be used for different purposes. I see a lot of applications. I guess the Martino thing is using the same melodic material for different chord types through transposition, and you could do the same with m7b5 as he does with m7. So that's one application.
Another is, just as an example that I've observed, that if you have a diminished seven chord somewhere in a tune or improvisation, you have four half step movements to get to a m7b5 chord which, in a sense, gives you four options for where to go. Interesting way to modulate to a new key, maybe three or four places that you might not have gone otherwise.
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I almost feel like this is one of those situations where actually just making those observations is just as, or more important than, the implications...sometimes just looking "micro" like this is enough for little things to bubble to the surface right away when playing...
The implications might be something you can tear apart long term, but I'm willing to bet the little things like the observation about the diminished chord and moving one note to get a m7b5 voicing will make an immediate impact in your playing...I'm already thinking about it myself...and combining it with the idea of lowering one note of a diminished shape to get a dominant chord...there's visualization gold in there...
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Oh yeah, and I forgot that I also think it's an interesting to look at a diminished "family" of m7b5 chords, like this (enharmonics chosen to highlight the similarities)
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
C Eb Gb Bb
Db Eb Gb A
C E Gb A
C Eb G A
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Em7b5 is also Cdom7,9 F#7b9, Gmin6, Bb 6 #11, etc.
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I'm no expert at it, but all your observations remind me of the Barry Harris stuff....except min7b5 is viewed as min6th at least in the initial stages of learning his concepts.
He adds a few other important ones to the raise/lower notes from the diminished....
Raise or lower any 2 consecutive notes from a diminished one half step and you get a Maj6/Min7
Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb >>>> C E G Bbb(A) = C6/Amin7
Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb >>>> C D F Bbb(A) = F6/Dmin7
Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb >>>> Db Eb Gb Bb = Gb6/Ebmin7
Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb >>>> B(Cb) Eb Gb Ab = B6/Abmin7
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Another Post From The Cult of Permutation
Cm7b5 in relation to 12 roots from a dominant perspective
Root-----C-----Eb-----Gb-----Bb
C---------1-----#9-----b5------b7
Db--------7------9------11------13
D---------b7-----b9------3-----b13
Eb--------13-----1-------#9------5
E--------b13-----7---------9------b5
F----------5------b7-------b9------11
Gb--------b5-----13-------1--------3
G----------11----b13------7--------#9
Ab---------3-------5-------b7--------9
A----------#9-----b5------13--------b9
Bb---------9-------11-----b13--------1
B----------b9-------3-------5---------7
1. eliminate structures with a ma7 (Db/E/G/B)
2. structures with both 3 and b7 (D and Ab)
3. structures with just b7 (C and F)
4. structures with just 3 (Gb)
5. structures with other dominant relevant notes (Eb/A/Bb)
8 of 12 roots have varying amounts of dominant potential.
To test how believable a chord is in a dominant function, put it in a V I, bII I, II V I, II bII I sequence.
If you can't find anything, or hear it in that function then put it aside short term or long term.
My friend John who is a piano player and much smarter than me says he likes to build structures connected to function and context. He compared this type of approach as rummaging through the dictionary in search of meaningful words. In my heart I know he is right but sometimes I can't help myself and there are some cool words to be discovered.
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Here's a rather famous m7b5 chord:
Tristan chord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And Barry Harris once said in a workshop that Monk always referred to m7b5 chords as min6 chords with the 6th in the bass,
so (if I remember that correctly...) You're not alone with the ambiguity of the root.
Jens
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At my day gig so can't read the thread right now, but it looks interesting.
One thing I stumbled on this weekend. So take a half-dim chord then follow by a dim with same root makes for a ii-V7-9. I guess it works because it the A dim is the b9 of a tri-tone sub Ab7.
So Ami7-5 to Adim to Gmi7 (or Bb6).
Okay back to lunch.
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Love the m7b5 chord, ambiguity, flexibility or just call it jazz.
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I "wasted" a LOT of time before I found out that minor 6 is the "sound" of jazz...
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Very cool Jake... The problem, I look at almost any chord with the same approach. There is no chord without a reference, right? And once you have a reference, depending on what relationship your coming from or going to, ( whether played or not ) has weight on how to spell, harmonically or functionally.
But I always dig the spell the chord game... So you have your 1st level spellings derived from what you seem to be working with, physical info... the notes. Mechanical enough.
Then as bako started, same notes with different references. Still very mechanical.
Maybe next level would be possible implied secondary references... the notes functioning with reference to another structure of function, but at a secondary or implied relationship... modal contexts or even related chords from common chord patterns. This approach gets away from the standard mechanical process of note games. Not all the info is there. Like we sometimes use blue notes to influence harmony...
I'll try and come up with some examples..
Hey eddy... maybe the minor 6th is just one of the doorways to jazz.
Reg
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One of the ways I've always related to the diminished 7 chord is the fact that it is by definition a min6b5.
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minor6th is a m7b5 with a different root(Dm6 = Bm7b5)
Rootless dominant 9th is a m7b5(Bb9 = dm7b5)
Fm7b5 over G gives you a G altered sound.
So yeah, I'd say knowing m7b5 chords all inversion all string groups is pretty darn important. Particularly for unaltered dominant sounds. Tell you what, I think the straight up dom7th sounds abhorrent, especially root position. It's often cringeworthy even when played melodically 1,3,5,b7. There is just something wonky and cheesy about it.
For that reason, I like to sub the m7b5 to get dom9s a lot for unaltered dominants because the intervallic structure of the m7b5 is much softer to my ears. Maybe it's just a personal taste things, but I also hear the altered sub option of m7b5s to be much more pleasing. Don't know why that is.
In gypsy jazz, m7b5's are subbed for m6's all the time even in the "la pompe" rhythm. Rhythm players will comp a straight up root position Bm7b5 on the 5432 string set when playing the Dm6 on "Minor Swing" for instance.
But what I can't see is how the comparison between diminished and m7b5's can be applied practically. Seeing them all at once I believe would create conflicting intervals in regards to tonality. Say you'd consider a diminished chord to establish a dom7b9 tonality. A logic step would be to think of the m7b5's as possible subs for that dom7b9. Naturally there would be some choices that would work well and others that would not. I can't be bothered to do the math right now, just thinking out loud.
In my own explorations I have found the m7b5 to be a unifying entity for melodic minor. I'll say no more except there are no obvious avoid notes for any of the modes of MM... Go crazy with that!
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Yea... that's always great access door for MM or Dom. references which helps blue note access... if one evens need organizational method for Blue note access...
And...yea Dom. 7th chords hurt...
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Question from peanut gallery: Isn't that just because there is a minor triad in those four notes, but the root isn't in that triad? Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Thanks Bako! Interesting stuff. I noticed that Cm7b5/A could conceivably be from the A half/whole scale. Theoretically works as a dominant with standard tensions. I'll have to play around with possible uses. Originally Posted by bako
Another element I consider is...if the process is enjoyable and ultimately harmless, why not? I realized I used to think a lot about maximizing efficiency in the practice room. Artistic and technical explorations are rewarding in their own right...and I've noticed that after a certain point, often the things that wind up being 'useful' are surprising.My friend John who is a piano player and much smarter than me says he likes to build structures connected to function and context. He compared this type of approach as rummaging through the dictionary in search of meaningful words. In my heart I know he is right but sometimes I can't help myself and there are some cool words to be discovered.
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Wow, thanks Jens! Originally Posted by JensL
I found the full score reduced for solo piano: http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/...ristanPSit.pdf
full piece:
I'll have to listen to the full thing later on.
Very pretty...the wiki article uses the term "disintegration of tonality" but in a jazz context I could hear this as Fm7b5 E7#11 = bvm7b5 IV7#11 in key of B.
One of the reasons I take a special interest in m7b5 over others is that I've been looking closely at some scores for Ravel and Debussy and observing the interesting ways they use this sound.
Edit: Just listened to the whole thing, what a beautiful piece.Last edited by JakeAcci; 04-24-2013 at 10:42 AM.
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Also, iidim7 is rootless V7b9. So iim7b5 to iidim7 = iim7b5 to rootless V7b9. Originally Posted by docbop
I guess the same relationship is true of Cm6 to Cdim7 to G(m), and in a slightly different way, Ebma7#11 to Ebdim7 to G(m)
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Interesting, could you give an example? Originally Posted by Reg
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Yeah, I'm right there with you on that. Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
Hey buddy, read the thread titleBut what I can't see is how the comparison between diminished and m7b5's can be applied practically.
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Dbdim Cdim Bdim on the surface is C7b9 B7b9 Bb7b9 but is also I IV V C7b9 F7b9 G7b9
or to take it to the extreme
Bbdim Adim Abdim
Gdim Gbdim Fdim
Edim Ebdim Ddim
Dbdim Cdim Bdim
I can't remember using exclusively b9's in I IV V and maybe I never will.
Given the diminished symmetry thing:
Dbdim as C7b9 Eb7b9 Gb7b9 A7b9
Ddim as Db7b9 E7b9 G7b9 Bb7b9
Ebdim as D7b9 F7b9 Ab7b9 B7b9
Lots of progressional possibilities in half and whole step diminished movements.
I suppose a note or 2 could be altered to break out of the b9 all the time thing.
That's sounding dangerously close to Pat Martino, generating from symmetrical structures.
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Somethings for the beginners:
When I was first learning voicings for min7b5 chords, I found it useful to visualize them as maj7 "grips" with the root moved up a half step.
Need Cmin7b5?
Think about Bmaj7 voicings and 'raise the root:'
x2434x => x3434x
7x887x => 8x887x
xx9876 => xx(10)876
xx8877 => xx8878
xx4446 => xx4546
Etc.
Not something that you want to rely on too heavily, but it might be useful if you already know a lot of maj7 voicings, but are first working through min7b5 voicings.
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I like to take a m7b5 and raise its 3rd to a 4th. I guess that is some sort of perverse sus. I go from one to the other, in either direction or both ways.
Examples.
Bbm7b5: xx8999 <---> xx8.9.9.11
Fm7b5: xx6867 <---> xx8867
Cm7b5: xx4546 <---> xx4566
Gm7b5: xx3323 <---> xx3523
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