Some useless observations about m7b5 chords

[JakeAcci]

=ma7b5 a tritone away

[docbop]

=ma7b5 a tritone away

Tritone what a beautiful thing.

[Jonzo]

No one probably cares, but on the mandolin the same dim chord in the same spot can be used as four different dim chords. Same with aug.

Getting Into Jazz Mandolin - Ted Eschliman - Google Books

[docbop]

No one probably cares, but on the mandolin the same dim chord in the same spot can be used as four different dim chords. Same with aug.

Getting Into Jazz Mandolin - Ted Eschliman - Google Books

Augmented triad which is symmetrical Ma3rd's, so it only repeats 3 times. Dim is symmetrical but built on mi3rd's repeat 4 times.

[JensL]

Very pretty...the wiki article uses the term "disintegration of tonality" but in a jazz context I could hear this as Fm7b5 E7#11 = bvm7b5 IV7#11 in key of B.

One of the reasons I take a special interest in m7b5 over others is that I've been looking closely at some scores for Ravel and Debussy and observing the interesting ways they use this sound.

Actually that was a term that was used on Ravel, and Wagner's use of the m7b5 chord to me: "disintegration of tonality", makes sense since the Tristan chord is somehow resolving really weirdly from Fm7b5 to F7 to E in Aminor.

Feel free to drop some suggestions on Ravel and Debussy stuff?

Jens

[JakeAcci]

Feel free to drop some suggestions on Ravel and Debussy stuff?

Jens

Yes! Ravel's string quartet, the first two movements. Debussy's string quartet, specifically the third movement (i've been spending a lot of time with that one.) Ravel's trio for piano, violin, and cello...amazing. I've listened to that trio so many times and learn something new every time. The scores are all on IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music with reductions for solo piano for the quartets. Been workin on reading my alto clef!

[jster]

The wikipedia entry on the chord was kind of lame in that it left out the whole point of the music of Tristan as a whole is that things don't get resolved until the Liebestod. This video isn't bad, but Fry really screws it up, the ultimate resolution is to B major:

Here's the Liebestod, which is almost always paired with the Prelude in concert performances. You might hear the Liebestod without the Prelude, but never the other way around. Don't want to leave your audience hanging, even if the jazzers might not care.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Hah! Do they always call a m7b5 the "Tristan" chord, the way rockers call 7#9 the "Hendrix" chord?

[docbop]

Hah! Do they always call a m7b5 the "Tristan" chord, the way rockers call 7#9 the "Hendrix" chord?

don't forget..

The Soap Opera chord = mi Ma7

Charlie's Angel chord = Ma7b5

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

don't forget..

The Soap Opera chord = mi Ma7

Charlie's Angel chord = Ma7b5

Oh yeah, and the Steely Dan ("Mu") chord: Maj(add 2).

I better stake out a chord before they're all gone! I kinda like this: x32442 (B | C)

[AmundLauritzen]

Hey buddy, read the thread title

It was not meant as critique. Actually, I was very intrigued by your discovery. It just irritates me that I can't find an application for it, because you've probably stumbled across something that can be very powerful if applied right.

What I can think of so far is this:

1: Different locrian modes over a dom7b9 from each root of the diminished. If they all sound good this can be a great formula for substitutions. I love subbing one tonality over another, like the up a minor third II-V sub for instance. I'm thinking something like that.

2: Different m7b5 arpeggios over the dom7b9. If they all produce valid note choices then one can basically play a collection of m7b5 arpeggios a minor third apart. Of course the challenge then would be to link together different inversions in a way so that it doesn't sound mechanical or obvious. With passing tones or something.

3: Different melodic minors a minor third apart. Actually the melodic minor contains two m7b5s a whole step apart. Since a minor third interval differs from a whole step by a semitone, it could possibly create harmonic conflicts.

Just thinking out loud. Bringing out the guitar this time of night will piss off the neighbors. I'm probably going to test these things out tomorrow. First the minor third arpeggio collection, if that works then the other ones might work too.

[JensL]

The wikipedia entry on the chord was kind of lame in that it left out the whole point of the music of Tristan as a whole is that things don't get resolved until the Liebestod. This video isn't bad, but Fry really screws it up, the ultimate resolution is to B major:

yeah you're right, there is a point to how it is resolved and left unresolved in the form of the opera. Since we don't work with forms of 2 hours, but more like 32 bars, that is a bit hard to relate to.

Thanks for the videos though

Jens

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

yeah you're right, there is a point to how it is resolved and left unresolved in the form of the opera. Since we don't work with forms of 2 hours, but more like 32 bars, that is a bit hard to relate to.

Hah, try more like five hours! Wagner took his time.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Btw, here is the start of Tristan und Isolde with the m7b5:



xx3444-5 x767x6-7

[jster]

Hah, try more like five hours! Wagner took his time.

The way you have to do it is first get a good nite's sleep. They usually start his operas 60-90 minutes early, which means 6:30 or 7:00. You have a good dinner, then a large coffee. And, you have to spring for the first few rows, so figure $150 a ticket. You'll be up there with folks who ooze wealth and probably have seen the opera a dozen times around the world, but at least they won't start fidgeting at exactly the wrong time. That way, you'll stay awake and be good and ready for the Liebestod. Almost nothing happens in the opera. It's mostly psychological. You can do the cheap seats for most Italian operas. Mozart, maybe. Tristan, definitely not advisable.

[jster]

Here's the score of the Liebestod:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ReverseLookup/20353

Just click View when it comes up.

[JakeAcci]

It was not meant as critique. Actually, I was very intrigued by your discovery. It just irritates me that I can't find an application for it, because you've probably stumbled across something that can be very powerful if applied right.

I haven't really found anything that useful. One idea/observation was that it could lead to interesting ways to modulate to a new key.

[JakeAcci]

Interesting task:

Use m7b5 chords as a means of expressing various common harmonic sequences.

Examples:
Cm7b5 F7alt Bbm6 = Cm7b5 Ebm7b5 Gm7b5

Cm7 F7 Bbma7 = Am7b5 Am7b5 Em7b5

Ebm7 Ab7 Bbma7 = Cm7b5 Cm7b5 Em7b5


Stella by Starlight with only m7b5 chords - an arpeggio etude in the making?:

Em7b5 - - - |Gm7b5 - - - |Am7b5 - - - |- - - -

Dm7b5 - - - |- - - - |Am7b5* - - - |Cm7b5- - - |

Ebm7b5 Em7b5 - - |Em7b5 - Gm7b5 - |Bm7b5- - - |Gm7b5- - - |

Bbm7b5 Bm7b5 - - |Em7b5 - Gm7b5 - |Am7b5- - - |Cm7b5- - - |

Fm7b5- - - |- - - - |Am7b5- - - |- - - - |

Cm7b5- - - |- - - - |Em7b5- - - |- - - |

Em7b5- - - |Gm7b5- - - |Dm7b5- - - |Fm7b5- - - |

Cm7b5- - - |Ebm7b5- - - |Em7b5*- - - |- - - - |

* m7b5 with b9 in the melody

substitution guide in making the above:

Cm7b5 = Cm7b5

C7 unaltered or lydian dominant = Em7b5

C7alt = Bbm7b5

Cm7 = Cm6 = Am7b5

Cmaj7 = F#m7b5


Could take arpeggios through "Stella" above, or voice lead chords, or use the chord symbols as a loose guide for how to color the harmony.

[mr. beaumont]

See...now we're getting somewhere...going to try this as soon as I can get my hands on a guitar today.

[djangoles]

Pretty cool...The Maj7 was one I hadn't really thought about before.
Anyway this is for ref...similar but not as in-depth with subs and viewed as a min6 instead of m7b5

http://www.jazzand.com/Rick_Stone/Ar...ale%20Subs.pdf

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think this was mentioned at the start, but under the idea of "m7b5 shall rule them all!", if you play a iim7b5 over the V bass, you get the susb9 sound:

Dm7b5/G = D F Ab C + G.

I like doing this when there is no ii chord before the V. Cool Herbie Hancock sound, and you get to resolve that sus4 down to the major 7 in the following I chord.