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I'd like to read some opinions on the pros and cons of using solfege vs. using numbers when doing sight-singing/ear training exercises. I learned solfege in college and mostly stick with that, but also sometimes use the numbers. I know there are systems that strongly advocate for one or the other. It seems solfege is more about the relationships to a tonal center whereas singing the numbers of chord tones is more about hearing each chord as it's own event.
So I'm curious to read opinions that are informed primarily by people's own direct experience.
Matt
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03-04-2013 06:57 PM
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The biggest benefit of solfege, IMO, is that all the sounds are one syllable. It's going to be way easier to sing "DO-MI-SO-TI" than "One-Three-Five-Seven" in rhythm. Also, what do you do if it's flat? "Do-Mi-So-Tay" becomes "One-Three-Five-Flatseven"?
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Good old Guido...
I use a number system...but do teach solfege as well..
time on the instrument...
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Yep, that's me too. I'm a really big advocate of moveable do solfege. I actually use it to teach very small children about scales and transposition. Works well.
Originally Posted by ecj
Numbers are important to know...but not to sing, in my opinion. Some college programs use numbers, and sing 'five' whether it's flat five or natural or sharp. My feeling is that it's really not to hard to memorize the solfege syllables. It took me a couple of days. It's what high level programs seem to use. It's helped me a lot.
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I have always used numbers because they constantly enforce the unique functional identity of each note. But being "bi-lingual" is also important. I teach solfege as a second language, and it's a lyrical language, it flows, doesn't attribute any inherent intervallic numeric to the line and, to be honest, it's a much more widely accepted system. There are other systems, like Gordon, which is used among many music educators, that uses doo, dit and other non intervallic syllables, but instead emphasizes the duration, and rhythmic aspect of the vocalized note. This is really useful in learning by ear and in working with truly atonal situations (Modus Novus for example) it's kind of essential to hearing without tonal centre. Among musicians, solfege is somewhat universal among Western music traditions, the numbers are more a necessity for fluency in jazz in many cases.
But that's just my opinion.
DavidLast edited by TH; 03-05-2013 at 08:47 AM.
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I use the extremely useful technique of "la la" sight singing...
I really find it difficult to use sight reading techniques. I rather read on my instrument. I just find it really difficult to have to read the note, determine what scale number it is, and if I'm solfegging, then figure out the syllable. Not so hard on diatonic stuff, but when it gets chromatic and you have to change the letters around if it's sharp or flat, really throws me off. So I'm a proud user of the "la la" technique. Sometimes I'll throw in a good "shoo bop" for good measure. I'm a jazz guy after all.
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Like others I find the syllables easier to sing especially for sharp or flatted notes.
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When I studied as a voice major, there was a heavy emphasis on practicing the pronounciation of the vowel sounds. Solfege combines this practice with training your ear to recognize intervals. There is no debate or controversy on the topic. It works, and has worked for hundreds of years. You can use whatever you want, we don't care!
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You get a pass on this as long as you grunt forcefully whenever you encounter a toneless rhythmic figure. Originally Posted by jtizzle
I use the extremely useful technique of "la la" sight singing...
I really find it difficult to use sight reading techniques. I rather read on my instrument. I just find it really difficult to have to read the note, determine what scale number it is, and if I'm solfegging, then figure out the syllable. Not so hard on diatonic stuff, but when it gets chromatic and you have to change the letters around if it's sharp or flat, really throws me off. So I'm a proud user of the "la la" technique. Sometimes I'll throw in a good "shoo bop" for good measure. I'm a jazz guy after all.
"La la laa, la la-LAAA, shoo bop, shoo-bop-bop, lalala, UHN UHN UH-UHN!"
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i use numbers for relative pitch, but fixed do solfege has many benefits, and is well worth the effort.
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asterisk: I don't use moveable do solfege unless the tonal center is clear as day and stays for a duration. In a jazz tune with a lot of modulations I just use 'la la' and if it's some sort of 'non-tonal' exercise then I might use fixed do solfege rather than moveable.
I've also done some vocabulary exercises where I sing the soflege with 'do' as the root of the chord and then also with 'do' as the key center.
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I use moveable do all the time to practice licks, etc.
It can also be a good exercise to sing through a head once in fixed do, then once in moveable do after analyzing how the tonal centers shift.
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I scat melodic material... Educated with solfege years ago... but tend to use whatever syllable helps me articulate the phrase. I tend to think of solfege or numbers as a learning/teaching tool to be able to hear notation. Once you get your ears right... who cares what you use. I don't think either method is really designed to teach/express harmonic practice.
Reg
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i'm with jtizzle on this
understand the concept of solfege but have always found the idea completely boring
if i am looking at notation i can hear the tune in my head anyway without singing anything, anyone else do this?
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I couldn't agree more! Not that I know solfege---I'll have to learn it--but recently I was doing a lot with triads and playing things through the cycle and I wanted everything to be one syllable! Carol Kaye talks about this in some of her material, though she seems to forget that she hasn't TAUGHT it and not all students of her already know it! Originally Posted by ecj
What's the best way to learn it? ("Best" here means efficient, free, and can be studied alone.)
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Thank you all for the replies so far. It's interesting to read about different opinions and experiences. It seems like there is a general agreement that singing is almost taken for granted as an important part of studying music, regardless of how one does it. Wish I understood this when I was 16!
There are two systems, fixed do and moveable do. Fixed do was (still is?) used in Europe, and means that C is alway Do, D is always Re, etc. Movable do means do is always the tonal center. Moveable do is much more widely used and in my opinion, much more useful for developing relative pitch. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
It's not real complicated. You probably already know that Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Ti-Do is the major scale. Minor and chromatic pitches are given different names depending on the context or direction of their resolution. The way I learned it in college, b2 is Ra, #1 is Di, b3 is Me, #2 is Ri, #4 is Fi, b6 is Le, #5 is Si, b7 is Te, #6 is Li.
Start by singing stuff on the major scale. Sing along as you play on guitar or piano if necessary, then practice singing without an instrument. Sing drills like the major triads, the scale in thirds, etc. Same stuff you might use as warmups or for technique drills on your axe. Then just sing whatever you want to work on. Add minor and chromatic stuff. Sing lines from tunes, licks, whatever. Sight-sing whatever you want from notation. Take simple tunes you've heard your whole life like "Happy Birthday" and figure them out using solfege, without an instrument. No end to the stuff you can do.
I found it pretty easy and fast to learn the basics of solfege. I actually did a semester of sight-singing using the numbers in a pre-audition class at my college. After I started the actual music program, we started using solfege in the first week of aural skills class.
So I like solfege and actually find it fun to play around with. I'll probably use it the rest of my life. It's definitely helped my ear and helps me memorize stuff as well. I guess I also just like things that have a long tradition behind them. Having said all this, I do realize solfege has it's limitations, and realize that other systems (or no system) are equally valid and useful as well.
Matt
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"a little every day" Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
moveable do
solfege freeware
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Cool! Carol Kaye talks about "moveable do" in some of her stuff, and I figured out what that meant. She didn't mention the names for the other pitches, though. Very cool. Everything being one syllable with a singable vowel is a huge plus! Thanks again. Originally Posted by MattC
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I've not done any formal "Ear Training" since taking music at College as a teenager, so I've decided to embark on this book:
Ear Training for the Contemporary Musician: Joe Elliott, Carl Schroeder, Keith Wyatt: 9780793581931: Amazon.com: Books
Bon voyage
Guy
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It's never too late to sing. I've been playing for 45 years, and just started voice lessons. My teacher uses numbers, I had already studied solfege, and he had no objections to my use of syllables. In fact, the syllables will help produce better tonality than the numbers, and I intend to get him into that approach before long.
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C=0
C#/Db=1
D=2
D#/Eb=3
E=4
F=5
F#/Gb=6
G=7
G#/Ab=8
A=9
A#/Bb=10
B=11
C=0
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The mind can play tricks on you though. Especially if you are playing music that isn't what you are used to, or music that is breaking away with tonality. Post/Tonal, like Bartok.
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oh boy, can I talk about ear training here? Is that kosher?
My musicianship teacher is of the camp that "post tonal" music doesn't exist, or at least, it is mislabeled. Bartok composed in key centers, and other 20th century composers did as well. They just visited those key centers very very briefly. A key center doesn't have to revolve around a traditional key. A key center could revolve around (just learning set notation) 024. Or the key center could be C mixolydian b6. Or the key center could be a Bbmaj triad Emajor triad hexatonic key. See, I am interested in theory... I just think that the ear should always lead the brain.
In terms of solfege, I use chromatic movable do. I tried to demonstrate how I use solfege to learn tunes, but that drone stuff is deafening (sorry, it was an experiment. Never posted something like that before)
2sircheck is using the notation that I wanna learn next, as it is a requirement for set notation. You can use that system to analyze how melodies are constructed in standards and then you can build chord voicings based off those intervals. Thing is, I would still hear everything in a key (or a modulation) even with that new system.
Numbers can work, but saying two syllables, such as "flat-5" can mess up your rhythmic conception if you are trying to sight read a line of music. Just something to be aware of. I sing every day, in my car, so no one will hear my horrible singing. But... I can sing in tune (Beyonce, come on girl!)
By the way, most jazz standards are written with a key center in mind. Most Jobim tunes as well. Even Wayne Shorter and Giant Steps revolve around a central key that the modulations orbit around. Once you learn how to feel that "gravitational pull of the central key" than all of the modulations will make more sense and your solos will be cohesive. I am still studying how to do this, not easy, but it is fun. I tried to exemplify that with Joy Spring being in F major.
And no, I am not over complicating **whining like a baby and slamming the floor**
I am simplifying...
Oh brother...Last edited by Irez87; 09-27-2015 at 02:30 PM.
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