Chord Progression: Scale/Mode Compatibility

**Inky** · 02-20-2013, 02:20 PM

I'm fairly new to jazz theory here as I suspect this question will reveal, but I'm trying to wrap my head around some concepts here. Are there certain scales/modes that go with certain chord progressions? For instance, ii, V, I : is there, are there certain scales/modes that work well with this progression?

Now maybe I'm way off base with my thinking here, I suspect so, but if not then the next question would be how do you know which goes with which? Are there like charts or diagrams?

Thanks,
Ken

**pierre richard** · 02-20-2013, 02:37 PM

In the key of C...

for the I..play from C to C...

for the ii...play from D to D...

for the V..play from G to G...

thats starting at the roots and playing to the octave...

the C triad contains the notes C..E..G....you can play from c to c...e to e...g to g.

the Dm triad contains the notes.D..F..A...you can play from d to d...f to f..a to a..

the G triad contains the notes g..b..d...g to g..b to b..d to d..

adding the 7th to the Dm gives you...d..f..a..c..

adding the 7th to the G gives you...g..b..d..f..

play as noted above..

this beginner lesson should get you going..

check out some lessons on this site...

go to jamie abersolds site and get your free copy of "jazz aids"...a great little book...

time on the instrument..

**Inky** · 02-20-2013, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by pierre richard

In the key of C...

for the I..play from C to C...

for the ii...play from D to D...

for the V..play from G to G...

thats starting at the roots and playing to the octave...

the C triad contains the notes C..E..G....you can play from c to c...e to e...g to g.

the Dm triad contains the notes.D..F..A...you can play from d to d...f to f..a to a..

the G triad contains the notes g..b..d...g to g..b to b..d to d..

adding the 7th to the Dm gives you...d..f..a..c..

adding the 7th to the G gives you...g..b..d..f..

play as noted above..

this beginner lesson should get you going..

check out some lessons on this site...

go to jamie abersolds site and get your free copy of "jazz aids"...a great little book...

time on the instrument..

Sorry, but to me this doesn't quite compute. Are you saying that after playing the ii then notes in the D minor scale are played, then after shifting to the V then notes in the G major scale are used? If I'm reading you right, every time I move from one chord to another in a melody, then a different scale is relevant, yes?

Where would the various modes (Dorian, etc.) fit into this?

Thanks,
Ken

**mr. beaumont** · 02-20-2013, 03:11 PM

I REALLY wouldn't look at a ii V I modally...but he's suggesting Dorian on the ii, mixolydian on the V, and Ionian on the I...which is the same exact note set...so it's Really overthinking it.

In a series of non resolving ii V's zipping by at a brisk tempo you might think only ii or only V over them though...

Are you just starting out with jazz improv? If so, I'd put the modes away...

**ColinO** · 02-20-2013, 04:04 PM

If I were just starting out (and I'm not far beyond that) I would learn maj7, m7, dom7, dim7, and augmented arpeggios all over the neck in all keys. I would play the arpeggios over ii V I's in all keys. I would learn the major scale in all positions. And I would learn the chord scale in all keys.

Instead of learning modes, I would learn what key each chord in a progression was a part of. I don't think that songs were written in modes until the sixties(not counting medieval church modes-God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen is my favourite Christmas tune). People toss around the term a lot when analysing solos but I get the impression that most really don't know what they are talking about other than that they are playing a certain major scale over a chord with a different root - like they know that you can play a C major scale over a G7 chord and when you do that you can call it mixolydian. I think it's better to understand that G7 is a chord diatonic to the key of C major so the C major scale tones will work over a G7 chord for example.

In answer to your question, the major scale with the root on the I will work over all three chords of the ii V I. Eg C major scale works on Dm7 G7 and Cmaj7. That is because all three are made up of notes that are contained in the C major scale. Playing that scale over those chords will sound fine. Focussing your improv on chord tones as those chords are played will sound better. Using arpeggios diatonic to the key of the chord that is being played can add some interest. Do that for a while then start finding ways of adding more interest by using chromatics, extensions, and a myriad of other devices that you will eventually learn about if you have the interest.

**pierre richard** · 02-20-2013, 04:07 PM

I didn't mention modes at this time due to ..lets play the notes first and learn how and why at a later time...

applied first then the theory...

but yes these are the modes of the c major scale as mr beaumont stated...

play first...analyze later...

time on the instrument..

**JonR** · 02-20-2013, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Inky

I'm fairly new to jazz theory here as I suspect this question will reveal, but I'm trying to wrap my head around some concepts here. Are there certain scales/modes that go with certain chord progressions? For instance, ii, V, I : is there, are there certain scales/modes that work well with this progression?

Now maybe I'm way off base with my thinking here, I suspect so, but if not then the next question would be how do you know which goes with which? Are there like charts or diagrams?

Thanks,
Ken

I agree with Jeff - forget about modes and chord-scales, it's not appropriate, and makes it way more complicated than it has to be.
Look at the notes in the chords. Eg, let's say it's Cm7-F7-Bbmaj7 (ii-V-I in Bb).
Cm7 = C Eb G Bb
F7 = F A C Eb
Bbmaj7 = Bb D F A
What does that spell? Bb C D Eb F G A = Bb major scale.

Away you go...

(If you don't know what notes are in chords, then that's the FIRST thing you must learn...)

**cosmic gumbo** · 02-20-2013, 05:41 PM

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**JakeAcci** · 02-20-2013, 05:46 PM

ii V I is in the key of I. The "I" scale works for all chords.

**Inky** · 02-20-2013, 06:21 PM

Thanks Colin, very helpful as other replies have been too. I'm really just looking for a better understanding of the whole chord progression/scales relationship. There are a whole lot of things a person has to memorize in order to understand music theory, I'm just trying to focus that work some, and to grasp the concept behind work.

Originally Posted by ColinO

If I were just starting out (and I'm not far beyond that) I would learn maj7, m7, dom7, dim7, and augmented arpeggios all over the neck in all keys. I would play the arpeggios over ii V I's in all keys. I would learn the major scale in all positions. And I would learn the chord scale in all keys.

This is most helpful. Coming from a classical guitar background I know most of the major and minor scales a la Segovia. However, those patterns move up and down the neck quite a bit and I'm sure there are other patterns for these scales that move across the fretboard more. The arpeggios you listed will be a great next step.

Originally Posted by ColinO

Instead of learning modes, I would learn what key each chord in a progression was a part of.

Yeah, I think it was a mistake to include modes in my question, but now I understand more about them. But I don't understand what you mean by: "I would learn what key each chord in a progression was a part of." Isn't a progression always in one key?

Originally Posted by ColinO

In answer to your question, the major scale with the root on the I will work over all three chords of the ii V I. Eg C major scale works on Dm7 G7 and Cmaj7. That is because all three are made up of notes that are contained in the C major scale. Playing that scale over those chords will sound fine. Focussing your improv on chord tones as those chords are played will sound better. Using arpeggios diatonic to the key of the chord that is being played can add some interest. Do that for a while then start finding ways of adding more interest by using chromatics, extensions, and a myriad of other devices that you will eventually learn about if you have the interest.

OK, I think I get it. So after playing say a Dm7 chord and I want to improvise a little I'd use notes from a Dm7 scale, though as you say, in this case any in the C major scale will work.

I think my next question then would be: is there a book that I could buy, or a website that shows the patterns for all of those scales (maj7, m7, dom7, dim7) in all the keys. In doing a google search I can see many individual patterns, but it would be nice to find them all in one place.

Hoping that I'm not too much of a ignoramus,
Ken

**Inky** · 02-20-2013, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by JonR

Look at the notes in the chords. Eg, let's say it's Cm7-F7-Bbmaj7 (ii-V-I in Bb).
Cm7 = C Eb G Bb
F7 = F A C Eb
Bbmaj7 = Bb D F A
What does that spell? Bb C D Eb F G A = Bb major scale.

Away you go...

(If you don't know what notes are in chords, then that's the FIRST thing you must learn...)

Thanks Jon, Yes, I think I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel.

Ken

**ColinO** · 02-20-2013, 07:16 PM

"But I don't understand what you mean by: "I would learn what key each chord in a progression was a part of." Isn't a progression always in one key?"

I don't know about that but jazz tunes move from one key(or tonal center) to another throughout. For example Satin Doll's A section moves through the following keys/tonal centers - C, D, G, Gb, C(if memory serves) or something like that. in the section that is in the key of C, the chords are Dm7 and G7 - in that section you can play C major scale tones and that will work - so will Dm7 arpeggio and G7 arpeggios. Also, because in the key of C the arpeggios that are diatonic to that major scale are Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Amin7, Bmin7b5, all of those arpeggios will work over those two chords with varying degrees of success.

Likewise in the D tonal center where you see the Em7 and A7 chords, you can use the D major scale over both of those as well as the Dma7, Em7, F#m7, Gmaj7, A7, Bm7, C#m7b5 arpeggios.

"OK, I think I get it. So after playing say a Dm7 chord and I want to improvise a little I'd use notes from a Dm7 scale, though as you say, in this case any in the C major scale will work."

If by "Dm7 scale" you mean D dorian, then that contains exactly the same notes as a C major scale. My suggestion is to never mind D dorian, just remember that Dm7 is a a chord that is diatonic to the C major scale and so the C major scale will work over that. Focus on the Dm7 chord tones and it will sound even better.

Regarding a book showing the various arpeggios, there are lots but you can probably get most of that on line.

Cheers.

**cosmic gumbo** · 02-20-2013, 07:20 PM

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**jster** · 02-20-2013, 08:05 PM

(to be read as though coming through a loudspeaker on a patrol car): Put your hands on your head, step away from the modes!

Sorry, I had to get that in there. Inky, these guys will set you straight. Good luck.

**docbop** · 02-21-2013, 01:26 AM

Check out this Gary Burton video on improv it should help.

**dkstott** · 02-26-2013, 12:54 PM

learning the notes in the chords is absolutely the way to go to determine the key of the song

here's something that helped me understand modes;

G major played at 1^st position is G major
G major played at 2^nd position is A Dorian mode
G major played at the 3^rd position is B Minor Phrygian mode.

forget the names, it's all the key of G major!!

**monk** · 02-27-2013, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by Inky

But I don't understand what you mean by: "I would learn what key each chord in a progression was a part of." Isn't a progression always in one key?

No, a chord progression is not always in the same key. The pop tunes that we refer to as The Great American Songbook along with many jazz compositions and later popular music often have sections where the key center changes through the use of such devices as secondary dominants, modal interchange and descending ii-V7-I movement.

Originally Posted by dkstott

learning the notes in the chords is absolutely the way to go to determine the key of the song

No, it isn't. The best way to determine the key of a song is to learn the functions of the chords in a key and identify the chords by function. The most important chord in the key is the dominant seventh.

In any standard type tune based on functional harmony, each key, major or minor, only has one dominant seventh chord. The dominant seventh occurs on the fifth degree of the scale of the key and leads back to the tonic of the key. If you encounter more than one dominant seventh chord, you are usually looking at a temporary modulation to the key in which that dominant seventh resides.

**JonR** · 02-27-2013, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by dkstott

learning the notes in the chords is absolutely the way to go to determine the key of the song

Possibly, but only if they are all in the same key. (And in that case, you determine the key as monk says, by looking at chord type and function.)

But what learning the notes in the chords WILL do is enable you to improvise fairly well without having to determine the key. You - er - use the notes in the chords. (If you want more notes than the chord arpeggio, borrow from chord before or after; or use chromatic passing notes.)

Originally Posted by dkstott

here's something that helped me understand modes;

G major played at 1^st position is G major
G major played at 2^nd position is A Dorian mode
G major played at the 3^rd position is B Minor Phrygian mode.

forget the names, it's all the key of G major!!

Yes, except that isn't "understanding modes" at all. If the key is G major, then modal terms are irrelevant (they are not "positions", on a fretboard or any other instrument).
OTOH, if modal terms are relevant, then the music is not in a key. It's in a mode (or modes). (If the music is in B phrygian mode, say, then every position of the "G major scale" will give you B phrygian mode, just as it will give you G major if the music is in G major.)

**JNGuitar** · 03-01-2013, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Inky

I'm fairly new to jazz theory here as I suspect this question will reveal, but I'm trying to wrap my head around some concepts here. Are there certain scales/modes that go with certain chord progressions? For instance, ii, V, I : is there, are there certain scales/modes that work well with this progression?

Now maybe I'm way off base with my thinking here, I suspect so, but if not then the next question would be how do you know which goes with which? Are there like charts or diagrams?

Thanks,
Ken

I was taught this sort of trick using pentatonic movement in half step increments for each chord starting on the minor pentatonic scale of the ii chord. I find using the coinciding scale with the V chord is a little too outside so I tend to hang on the ii chord scale for it, but it's a good simple start. The video below describes it very well. Hope it helps.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-01-2013, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by JNGuitar

I was taught this sort of trick using pentatonic movement in half step increments for each chord starting on the minor pentatonic scale of the ii chord. I find using the coinciding scale with the V chord is a little too outside so I tend to hang on the ii chord scale for it, but it's a good simple start. The video below describes it very well. Hope it helps.

In summary, he's suggesting:

Dm7: Dm Pent (D F G A C)
G7: D#m Pent (D# F# G# A# C#) -- he has to explain away the F# over G7
CMaj7: Em Pent (E G A B D)

You can also do that starting up a fifth, and the altered moment is less out:

Dm7: Am Pent (A C D E G)
G7: Bbm Pent (Bb Db Eb F Ab) -- b9 b5 #5 b7 b9
CMaj7: Bm Pent (B D E F# A) -- I like the #11. You can always resolve it up to a G.

**edh** · 03-02-2013, 01:10 AM

@BDLH isn't the Bb a flatted 3rd not a flatted 9th?

**kofblz** · 03-02-2013, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

In summary, he's suggesting:

Dm7: Dm Pent (D F G A C)
G7: D#m Pent (D# F# G# A# C#) -- he has to explain away the F# over G7
CMaj7: Em Pent (E G A B D)

You can also do that starting up a fifth, and the altered moment is less out:

Dm7: Am Pent (A C D E G)
G7: Bbm Pent (Bb Db Eb F Ab) -- b9 b5 #5 b7 b9
CMaj7: Bm Pent (B D E F# A) -- I like the #11. You can always resolve it up to a G.

You can increase your lick ideas by thinking of those minor pentatonic scales as their relative major pentatonic scale. Though they are the same notes, it can be a different feel altogether.

Dm pent = F major pent, Em pent = G major.

Here's another simple idea using the tritone sub on the G7. These arpeggios avoid the root of rhe chord being played over, which sounds good to me.

Dm7 - Fmaj7 arpeggio
G7 - C#7 arp (tritone sub)
Cmaj7 - Em arp / G6 arp

**Vladan** · 03-02-2013, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

In summary, he's suggesting:

Dm7: Dm Pent (D F G A C)
G7: D#m Pent (D# F# G# A# C#) -- he has to explain away the F# over G7
CMaj7: Em Pent (E G A B D)

You can also do that starting up a fifth, and the altered moment is less out:

Dm7: Am Pent (A C D E G)
G7: Bbm Pent (Bb Db Eb F Ab) -- b9 b5 #5 b7 b9
CMaj7: Bm Pent (B D E F# A) -- I like the #11. You can always resolve it up to a G.

I hate this way of cheating. I can't hear it. I tried playing displaced pentatonics to get good out tones, but it simply does not work.
It's not ear thing. Ocassionaly, I can hear #11 work 0ver I in ii V I, sometimes, even nat 7 over dom7 in V of ii V I, but to practice playing unrelated pentatonic is soo fqed up concept. I think even the "out notes" have to be "in in cotext". This shitty way of doing it just gives wrong notes we can only pretend are good.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-02-2013, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by edh

@BDLH isn't the Bb a flatted 3rd not a flatted 9th?

Yes, my bad. typo.

**pkirk** · 03-02-2013, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Inky

I'm fairly new to jazz theory here as I suspect this question will reveal, but I'm trying to wrap my head around some concepts here. Are there certain scales/modes that go with certain chord progressions? For instance, ii, V, I : is there, are there certain scales/modes that work well with this progression?

Now maybe I'm way off base with my thinking here, I suspect so, but if not then the next question would be how do you know which goes with which? Are there like charts or diagrams?

Thanks,
Ken

Hey Ken

You got lots of suggestions below, so I'll add one that I didn't see explicitly mentioned. Your first goal is to recognize snippets of chord progressions, i.e. II-V-I in major or minor, II-VI-II-V-I, Imaj-Imin, etc: there are lots of places where you can find lists of these common pieces of common jazz tunes. The goal is to have this as your template when you improvise. Many of the posts in this thread give you varying approaches to create your own lines over these, perhaps based on scales or modes moving in a certain way, and there are millions of other tricks (bebop scales, running arpeggios, tritone subs on V chords etc). THink of this information as data you collate as you progress, create your own lines, and analyze lines of others you transcribe. But *when improvising* over a jazz standard, you want to think of the II-V-I as "one thing", or even "a part of one thing", not as something to be broken down into smaller pieces. Even if you can think so quickly that you can instantly call on every method youve ever heard of for each individual chord of a II-V-I, it won't sound as musical, or as part of the jazz language as if you treat it as one thing.

Not sure if I'm being clear.