Using the circle of 4ths to organize advanced harmonic concepts

[ASATcat]

Hey Tim,
Thanks for the positive vibes. I'm feeling better, calming down, pulse down to 180 lol, no it 's down there at 75.

I don't understand why you think I'm talking about augmented triads, no you got that wrong, it's not
Augmented thinking, it's demented thinking lol.
No I don't use the aug triad and my movement is that of a maj 3rd not an aug 5th. That that's the other direction from the+5.

Why can't I make this clear and easy to understand?? Mam o mam

Hello,

I feel like your title is a little misleading. IMO, you are using essentially a augmented triad to organize your ideas, not the circle of 4ths/5ths.

Anyway, that's not really the topic. Personally, I think what you are saying is right on the money, you have found a sound that you can achieve via a specific memorized system. That is 100% valid and in no way "wrong".

I would really like to actually hear it though, in some kind of context.

As someone who loves music theory and organizational systems for music and composition I have found that an idea becomes valid once it is proven in living music. As one of my teachers says "the proof is in the pudding". I would also say that this idea fairly widely used already. I hear lots of people play Coltrane changes (particularly using triads) over all kinds of progressions, especially at casual gigs where the audience is chatting and the trio is having a little fun.

I don't know who is telling you that your thinking is wrong, but I have found that in the world of music theory, there are just too many perspectives to get hung up on "right" and "wrong". To me it's all about the fruits of the labor. If you master a concept, is it going to positively impact your overall musicianship? More often than not, the answer will be yes, dig?

As a side note, I like to do this little trick to get all 12 tones into a line, it also helps create actual "tone-rows" in the context of a solo if practiced enough.

play four "three note chords" consisting of a (root--major 3rd--major 7th) minor thirds apart... for example....

(C-E-B) (Eb-G-D) (Gb-Bb-F) (A-C#-G#)

you get all 12 tones without any repeats, and since each pattern is a familiar shape, it's pretty reliable in my experience.

to get a row, just play all four shapes in a row (using inversions for variety hopefully)

thanks for sharing.

[ASATcat]

Yea, the diminished soloing ideas are well accepted, codefied (somewhat), great stuff,I love it. Use it more than my maj 3rds thing, way more =)

timscarey,

Your idea on using the triads is also shared by jazz author Garrison Fewell, in his book "Jazz Improvisation, a melodic approach."

I would say this lends credence to your system.

[Vladan]

ASAT, I have problem understanding your ideas. More precisely, again (you did not answer my previous question), one half of your posts I do not understand, the other half seam to be utter BS.
I can't see you've found anything new in circle, anything we did not know already, however, you are rather vague on impleementation. Could you write some progression, note the meter and tempo and tell us how the 3angle thing function?

Like 120bpm 4/4 C|C|F|G|, for example, or whatever suits your system.

[timscarey]

Hey Tim,
Thanks for the positive vibes. I'm feeling better, calming down, pulse down to 180 lol, no it 's down there at 75.

I don't understand why you think I'm talking about augmented triads, no you got that wrong, it's not
Augmented thinking, it's demented thinking lol.
No I don't use the aug triad and my movement is that of a maj 3rd not an aug 5th. That that's the other direction from the+5.

Why can't I make this clear and easy to understand?? Mam o mam

I was just pointing out that as you move the pentatonic scales up in major thirds you are moving up an augmented triad. (If you think in moving shapes)

C pent E pent Ab pent

CEAb = An augmented triad. Thats all.

Im pretty sure I understand the concept.

[ASATcat]

Hey Vladan, I will make it as basic as possible, at least attemp.
I don't know where your B Eb G/B D G is part of, could you give the post number? That would help me.

Now how do I explain this super basic.

Most basic;
Use C, Ab, and E major pents over a C7, C7#9

Next, use C, Ab, and E over C7, C7#9, Ab7, Ab7#9, E7, E7#9. This part needs to be understood, it's a symetrical thing.

So each one of those major pents have a different shade of in/outness against the C7#9 for example. I like to think the C maj pent is the in, the Ab maj pent is simply a modest "out" sound, half in half out.
The E maj pent is totally out. But totally out by only a half step. This means it can easily be used in "side stepping" or "side slipping". A common technique in jazz.
It's a bit like shifting gears, you can guage your outness.

Does this much make sense? Please help me by helping me teach this with feedback.
I do have videos showing me playing with these iseas but just have my stupid phone and I have not yet figures out how to post a link to youtube.
The youtube is called "Imagination blues based impressions, there are three videos, if sommeone was kind enough to post them here for me that would be cool. And you can see me play totally unprepared playing, call it improv if you like but I'm playing ideas I've worked out from some ealier time, pure improv is NEVER played it before stuff.
I waddled in these ponds for a while

ASAT, if you'd explain your basic idea some more, the one you found out to be wrong?
More specific, how did B Eb G become B D G? I can not follow.

[Vladan]

Tim, only 1st of your 3 sig links work. Other 2 send me back to this forum main page.

[ASATcat]

Would someone like to help me by posting youtube links to me playing this stuff, I wish I could do it but can't
Go to "imagination blues based impressions" and listen to my crappy playing lol, no It's not too bad, like evryone, Imm striving to get better, but these concepts are clear to hear.

Spare some youtube links?
And may God Bless

I feel homeless with just this phone.

[Vladan]

It's at post #2

C G D A E = C major pent = Cmaj7 G7 Dm7 Am7 Em7

Ab Eb Bb F C= Ab major pent = Abmaj7 Eb7 Bbm7 Fm7 Cm7

E B F# C# G# = E major pent = Emaj7 B7 F#m7 C#m7 G#m7

Up to this point this is a nice clean chart and the whole idea would
fit the Giant Steps progression of Bma7 D7 Gmaj7 Bb7 Ebmaj7...

1. Obviously, C E Ab half step down is B Eb G, while in Giant steps you have BDG for the first 3 chords.
2. There is Eb, somwhere in there, but I wonder why you thought B Eb and G would work over D and Bb, and overall, and how?

[Vladan]

This one?

[Vladan]

Use C, Ab, and E major pents over a C7, C7#9

Why and how?

Next, use C, Ab, and E over C7, C7#9, Ab7, Ab7#9, E7, E7#9. This part needs to be understood, it's a symetrical thing.

Obviously, I do not understand. Where can I learn? Could you explain it here?

[ASATcat]

This one?

Yea, that will do, forgiving me for being a bit sloppy technically, the focus should be on the harmonic aspects that I'm working with.
Throughout the whole solo I'm restricting my thinking to this singular "triangle" concept I'm trying so hard to explain.
So the whole thing is me playing over this static vamp with that singular line of thought.
What part (harmonically) does my solo not work, where is the part where I'm BSming? I'm not the best player but I am playing from my heart and I do believe I'm telling some interesting lyrical stories as opposed to pyrotechniques,

So please help me by pointing out areas that don't work, at least in your opinion. If you totally hate it, I'll be ok with it, if everyones jumps in and says it sucks then I may go cry somewhere. But I've already been given the the confermation by forum goers, enough to know it's a wide spectrum of llisteners.

So?

And thanks for posting the video =)

[Vladan]

All I can say is, in my music something would work, something would not. Blues, pop, in,... - that works.
Out of key doesn't.

[ASATcat]

So by that statement you don't use any out ideas?
Fwiw I feel inside playing is the essential thing to learn.

I like inside. I'm inside my house right now.. very cold outside.

[Vladan]

I was refering to your playing. I can play little out and fit my needs. You, can not.

[timscarey]

Tim, only 1st of your 3 sig links work. Other 2 send me back to this forum main page.

Thanks for the heads up. I will have to fix that. I think my domain name might have expired... gotta stay on top of it.

[ASATcat]

I was refering to your playing. I can play little out and fit my needs. You, can not.

So let's see you're saying I can't fit your musical needs?

Seriously, I hear what you have to say, like I said I'm a student and never claimed to be Julian Lage. But I will say Julian is an exceptionally polite person and would never do what your doing in a public forum.
The need for you to be right here trumps everything else.

Enjoy the power payoff, and I'll just keep being me, what choice do I have. I don't mind, I'm just wanting to be nice and friendly.

[Vladan]

ASAT, you asked for opinion.
I just said it's not what I'm looking for, your system, based on your video. Nothing more. It may suiy straight jazz, or whatever, I don't know.
Take it easy. Just to remind you:

If you totally hate it, I'll be ok with it, if everyones jumps in and says it sucks...

So by that statement you don't use any out ideas?
Fwiw I feel inside playing is the essential thing to learn.

I like inside. I'm inside my house right now.. very cold outside.

So, like they say, it'll yeld the way you seeded.

Oh, yes, one more thing. Who the hell is Julian? Must be someone really important? To you? To me?

[ASATcat]

ASAT, you asked for opinion.
I just said it's not what I'm looking for, your system, based on your video. Nothing more. It may suiy straight jazz, or whatever, I don't know.
Take it easy. Just to remind you:




So, like they say, it'll yeld the way you seeded.

Oh, yes, one more thing. Who the hell is Julian? Must be someone really important? To you? To me?

Vladan, I appreciate you being honest, regardles of how I take it, you have been honest.

Now, you don't know who Julian is? I'll tell you this, he studied with the very same person that showed me the triangle concept (that I can't yet play 100% as good as I'd like) and Julian gets it and can play with it exceptionally.
You don't know who Julian is? That's out of the loop of todays jazz guitar scene. Check him out.

Perhaps you and I would agree lots more on standards? I started a thread on ATTYA and Stella, two tunes that are never finished, lifetime studies these tunes are.

Check out Julian Lage
Also check out
Lage Lund - no joke as funny as their names are lol
Mike Moreno - this guy needs to be betterf known