Coltrane changes

[bako]

One thing about the sequence posted to notice is that it starts on Iim in the key of C and ends on C.
It creates an alternate path of a 4 bar II V I. | Dm7 | G7 | C | % ||

The major 3rd cycle refers to the key centers, Ab, E and C.
In this instance a descending movement in major 3rds.
The dominants function to reinforce the arrival at these destinations.

[marceff]

Thanks for your replay.
Taking my previous example (Dm7-G7-C), how you determinate the key centers. IOW key centers of what? How do you relate key centers with Dm7-G7-C?
There must be something that I am missing...

[Boston Joe]

Taking my previous example (Dm7-G7-C), how you determinate the key centers. IOW key centers of what? How do you relate key centers with Dm7-G7-C?

In any key, the dominant chord is the V7, so if you see, for example, B7, you know you're in the key of E. So in a Coltrane cycle, the key centers go like this:

C > Ab = down a major third (or up a minor sixth).

Ab > E = Down a major third.

E > C = Down a major third.

So you start in C and end up back in C. This makes it an alternate way of getting through a II-V-I in C.

In other words:

Dm7 [Eb7 | AbM7] [B7 | EM7] [G7 | CM7] |
^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
Key of: C Ab E C
|

The over-all key of the phrase is C major, but you go through Ab and E on the way.

Sorry, I can't seem to get the lines in my example to align properly. I hope you can see what I mean.

[grahambop]

Thanks for your replay.
Taking my previous example (Dm7-G7-C), how you determinate the key centers. IOW key centers of what? How do you relate key centers with Dm7-G7-C?
There must be something that I am missing...

Simplify it. The first chord (Dm) is just a ii minor, it's just there to start off a cycle going ultimately to the final I, (C), so it's not very important really.

The commonest move in Western music (and jazz) is V to I. So you can kind of ignore chords 2, 4 and 6 because they are just V7 chords preceding the I's. So you're left with 3 'ones' or key centres, i.e. Ab, E, C.

[marceff]

Why did you remarked V7?
It is quite clear that, starting from the key of C, taking the maj3 down you get Ab and the from Ab to E, etc.
Then, what this has to do with the dominant?

[Boston Joe]

Why did you remarked V7?
It is quite clear that, starting from the key of C, taking the maj3 down you get Ab and the from Ab to E, etc.
Then, what this has to do with the dominant?

Because any time you see a dominant chord, you know what key you're in because there's only one in any key. But grahambop is right, too. You can just go by the major chords since in this case they're I chords.

[grahambop]

Why did you remarked V7?
It is quite clear that, starting from the key of C, taking the maj3 down you get Ab and the from Ab to E, etc.
Then, what this has to do with the dominant?

Because you asked how to determine the key centres.

OK back to basics. There are basically only 3 chords in the entire universe: Major, Minor, Dominant.

All the chords you marked with just a '7' (not the minor 7's or the Major 7's) are Dominants. Because that's what a Dominant chord is, it's a 7th chord. It's also the 5th chord in the major scale. The dominant chord is commonly where you go from, to get back to (= 'resolve to') the 'one' which is the home key. This is a fifth below the Dominant chord. This 'V7 to I' movement it is the commonest resolution in the music of Mozart, Beethoven, Charlie Parker, etc.

(Sometimes the Dominant is preceded by the ii minor chord, so we get Dm7 to G7 to C major. It's all going to C. That's why your progression started with a Dm7.)

So wherever you see a Dominant, check to see if the next chord is a fifth below it. If so, you have the good old V7 to I resolution. In your case, all 3 dominants resolve to a fifth below. So: Eb7 resolves to Ab major. B7 resolves to E major. G7 resolves to C major. Each one is a fifth below the Dominant 7th chord.

What this means, is that the Dominant chords can to some extent be disregarded in the analysis of the chord progression, because they are so closely related to the major chords which follow them.

So eliminate the Dominants, and you can see more clearly the 3 key centres in your progression, as I said: Ab, E, C.

But bear in mind, these are 3 very temporary 'key centres', they're gone in a flash then you end up in C anyway.

So if you're playing a solo, you potentially still need to negotiate the chord tones of all the chords involved. But it helps if you can simplify it down a bit, and get your head around the fact that basically, it's just Ab, E, C.

That's why I remarked on the Dominants, and 'removed' them.

[bako]

Dominant chords are the primary tonal engine of getting to a destination though not the only one.
They compel us back to a tonic or to another chord in the key or to other harmonic areas.

Coltrane was interested in cyclic movements with a goal in mind.
It is fascinating how alternative paths to the same place interact and can coexist.

[wolflen]

Coltrane was exploring "augmented theory" thus the three "keys" .. Three Major Tonics

analyze the augmented scale..its quite interesting...

C Eb E G Ab B Note: the three major chords of Coltrane changes are there..C E G...E G# B...Ab C Eb

also..in the augmented scale are the minor chords C Eb G ... E G B...Ab B Eb

Coltrane is mixing the diminished and augmented scales in this progression..

Eb7 B7 and G7 chords are embedded in the Db A and F diminished scales .. which of course are a major third apart as the tonics in the Augmented scale..

mixing tonic harmony-the diminished scale with chromatic harmony-the augmented scale gives us great improve freedom..as both scales are symmetrical..

example: the embedded chords in the diminished scales..Eb7 B7 and G7 .. lets take just the G7 coming from the F diminished scale (which is also the Ab B and D diminished scale) the G7 could be substituted a minor 3rd higher..Bb7 or a triton higher-Db7 or a Major 6th higher-E7 ..

try playing the dim scales and resolve them to C .. then use the subs chords to resolve to C (the major 6th--E7 may take the ear a bit of work..but with D and B notes in the chord it will find a way..) then use fragments of the dim scales and embedded chords into arps of the aug chords..use the subs and experiment..extend the progressions..alter the dominants..and of course..play Giant Steps !!

[marceff]

Whow wolf, it was like reading a thriller!

My mistake was considering chords not the key, then I couldn't find major 3rd interval starting from D (II). This is it. I still didn't assimilate jazz terminology and point of view, so sometime I get confused.
For instance, I learned to check how many sharps or flats were written at the beginning of pentagram to understand the key rather than look at V degree. It also confuses me when using enarmonics: a major 3rd down Ab should be Fb not E (3rd interval concerns A and F). I know they are the same but the scale grades are 7 and they all have different names, this also makes me understand the key I am playing, not mixing sharps and flats together.
But I have to adjust my approach to be more confident to jazz terms.

Back to Coltrane changes, they look to me his need to get free of the tight relationship between V - I. Therefore, I'd like to ask you about melody on top of it. Changes are very quick and I do not think you should follow each one of them.
Wolf was talking about mixing aug and dim, would it make sense?

[cosmic gumbo]

Nice pdf by Dan Adler.

http://danadler.com/misc/Cycles.pdf

[grahambop]

Back to Coltrane changes, they look to me his need to get free of the tight relationship between V - I. Therefore, I'd like to ask you about melody on top of it. Changes are very quick and I do not think you should follow each one of them.
Wolf was talking about mixing aug and dim, would it make sense?

Well what I do is play lines (mainly in eighth notes) based on a mixture of arpeggios and scale fragments (e.g. just 4 notes) which fit each chord in turn. The trick is to construct these lines so that from the last note played on each chord, you move to the nearest available note which fits the next chord, so that you get a nice smooth melodic line through the chords, not a disjointed-sounding line. But it takes some trial and error to do this on Coltrane changes because of the slightly unusual 'jumps' between the chords (hence 'giant steps'!).

Find a transcription of Coltrane's 'Giant Steps' solo (there are plenty online), play the first few bars of the solo slowly, and you'll see what I mean.

But that's just my approach, I'm not really a great one for scales and theory.

[grahambop]

You could also try taking the first 8 bars of Giant Steps, consider the melody and the chords, then try and write out a melodic line which joins the melody notes together and fits over the chords at the same time. That would be a good way to get started. The melody gives you 2 useful chord tones on nearly every bar, so use it!

[grahambop]

Personally I would not approach this by starting with all those scales. With 2 chords per bar, it's a confusing way to see it. I would start by just playing arpeggios for each chord and joining them on the nearest note, it's a better way of getting the sound of the chord tones into your ears.

So for the first 2 chords you could play an ascending B maj arpeggio in eighth notes i.e. B, D#, F#, A#, then just move down one semitone and play a descending D7 arpeggio i.e. A, F#, D, C.

Later you could move on to using short (4-note) combinations of arpeggio and scale fragments (in eighth notes), such as:
B maj descending: F#, D#, C#, B
followed by D7 ascending for 2 notes: C, E
then D7 descending for 2 notes: D, C
and you've already got a nice melodic phrase developing.

This is basically how I solo on Giant Steps. I find it almost like composing little melodies, it's a lot more fun and satisfying than running through scales.

Also, why convert everything to Dorian scales, that would confuse the hell out of me! It also tempts you to start everything on the root note of each dorian scale, which I don't think sounds good.

[grahambop]

And another thing - I see he's running the same Dorian scale across bar lines. Not good, in my opinion. You won't be learning to outline the chord changes and differentiate them properly if this is how you begin.

That's why a lot of beginners sound like they are playing scales instead of melodic jazz phrases.

Then they say 'I've learned all my scales but when I play it doesn't sound like jazz'!

[Nate Miller]

yea, take what Coltrane did on those bars as an example. He played a 1-2-3-5 pattern on the root of each chord. Its when the tune breaks out into the ii-V-Is that last for 2 bars that thinking of key centers and playing something out of a scale makes sense


is that video of Giant steps with the modes all over everything how guys are thinking these days?

[marceff]

I do agree with you guys. I am getting free of all scales when approaching a solo but still need to look around and check other ways of dealing it. I am rather attracted by intervals and chromaticism, although I still have to work on it. These days I'm listening a lot of Pat Martino, trying to grab his method rather than reproducing some of his licks.

[Nate Miller]

I do agree with you guys. I am getting free of all scales when approaching a solo but still need to look around and check other ways of dealing it. I am rather attracted by intervals and chromaticism, although I still have to work on it. These days I'm listening a lot of Pat Martino, trying to grab his method rather than reproducing some of his licks.

the way I learned was to weave my line through the chord tones, so I'm thinking 4 note patterns most of the time

but doing it that way is not an easy way to learn or an easy way to teach

[marceff]

How about the possibility to substitute chords, or better to play lines from tritone while keeping the original chord. I am trying to make it work but it doesn't come out pleasant staff out of it. I know I have to find my way.

[Nate Miller]

How about the possibility to substitute chords, or better to play lines from tritone while keeping the original chord. I am trying to make it work but it doesn't come out pleasant staff out of it. I know I have to find my way.

playing from the chord tones is tailor made for substitute changes. Since you are outlining a chord with every four notes, just outline the substitute change

what you do is take the chord tones as the starting place. Then there are ornaments/embellishments. You can take the chromatic half step above or below any chord tone, or the diatonic scale step above or below, or even a combination of the two like the classic "F - E - D - D#- E"

you can fill in the third between any two chord tones with the diatonic note, too, to make 4 note patterns out of triads like 1-2-3-5 or 1-3-4-5 or anything like that

so instead of just noodling in a scale like in rock, you are really spelling out the harmony through the line you are playing. That's what jazz is all about, really

[marceff]

As I am not using my own language, I'd like to check my terms understanding.
Chord tones = playing arpeggio lines, starting, for example, from 3rd of the triton chord, then through chromaticism, embellishment, other chord notes, end to 3rd or 5th or 7th of the next progression chord... and so on.
Did I get it right?

[Nate Miller]

As I am not using my own language, I'd like to check my terms understanding.
Chord tones = playing arpeggio lines, starting, for example, from 3rd of the triton chord, then through chromaticism, embellishment, other chord notes, end to 3rd or 5th or 7th of the next progression chord... and so on.
Did I get it right?

yes, that is right. Chord Tones = arpeggio

and then you can fill in the notes in between with notes from the scale, chromatic notes, or other chord tones just like you said

yes, you have it right

[marceff]

I've tried playing it for an hour this evening, applying on tunes and it sounded fine. I've played elementary lines on a sequence of 3/4 chords, including some substitution and I found it very interesting. I'll work on it.
Thanks for this nice tip!