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I grew up playing in E, A, D, and G, common for rock / blues / occasional country players of my era. Learning jazz was a sea change: I don't think I've yet played a jazz tune in E, the dominant key of my youth! I'm not complaining, just noticing.
When I asked a teacher why so much jazz was in flat keys he said, "The horn players love 'em." Fair enough, I guess, but if one is playing without horn players, if indeed, one is a guitarist and has some say in things, why not more tunes (-the obligatory 'blues in G' notwithstanding) in sharp keys??? E and A are fine keys! Just wondering out loud.
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11-27-2012 03:15 PM
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Playing in all keys is not hard, just takes time. A friend of mine says "there are no hard keys, just unfamiliar ones".
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I've grown to greatly prefer the "black keys."
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I find reading in flat-keys is easier.
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I'm comfy in the flat keys too, but why not a little A and E action now and then for the obvious reason that those keys allow guitarists to do things that aren't as easy in other keys? Some jazz players seem to have taken a vow never to play an open string!
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E is for teh bluz
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Bluz r gud.
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Actually, I like what the open strings are in some flat keys...the open B in the key of F, or the high open E in Bb? TASTY... Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Don't forget that you can play any song in any key you want to.
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Actually, the reason horn players love them is because horns are transposed instruments for reading notation. Trumpets (Bb) and saxes (Eb, Bb) have the luxury of having most of their charts written in C, G, D, etc., while the C instruments have to deal with the resulting Eb, Bb, F, Ab charts. It's all about making it simple for the horns. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I accept that. But I have to ask, "Aren't horn players supposed to be able to play in any key like the rest of us (are supposed to)???" Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
I'm not complaining. I love the flat keys. But I also love some of the sharp ones--such as A E and G.
And the question is, when guitarists are the leaders, why do they keep playing in the keys that were chosen for the sake of horn players???? (I got nothing against horn players!) I get it that we learn jazz in them and become convenient for us (-I grew up in E and A but Bb is more familiar to me than either of them now). But it seems that if keys can be chosen because they suit horn players, there's no shame in choosing keys that are convenient for guitarists! (G is easy, but Gb is a monster--for reading, I mean.)
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O, sure. I've been playing "Ain't Misbahavin'" in A today, just for the hell of it. I sing (-sorta) and learned long ago that learning a tune is one thing and find a key that suits me for singing is a whole 'nother deal. Originally Posted by kenbennett
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I think part of the reason is the technical differences between horns and the guitar. Guitars are relatively key-agnostic; there's only a small difference between playing a G in 3rd position and an Ab in 4th position. For saxophone players, an Ab requires coordinating the pinky finger to depress a key at the same time as the ring finger. As the keys get sharper and sharper, more of these uncomfortable accidentals are present, making scales and diatonic arpeggios more physically challenging, not just brain-challening
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I have hundreds and hundreds of charts...probably not one in Gb. I think you like to whine. I find guitar "friendly" keys like E and A with 3 and 4 sharps as difficult to read as anything. But I do understand about standard guitar tuning, neck layout and "playability", so sans horn players, go for it. Metheny has definitely composed many tunes in keys that specifically exploit the natural layout and overtones of the guitar. Use whatever you feel expands the music. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Actually, the first chart I was given for "'Round Midnight" was in Gb. But this isn't about me----I can play in whatever key I like; that's not an issue---but about why, given that a) flat keys were chosen primarily for the convenience of horn players, then why do b) so many jazz groups without horns still play so often in flat keys? I think it's a fair question. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
And again, I'm not complaining about this. I just wonder about it.
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Perhaps it has to do with the effect of the key itself. In other words do you think that a tune played in Gb has the same feel as the same tune in say C? Not considering the mechanics of playing, just the sound/feel, some tunes don't seem to work as well in some keys vs others. Some of this may just be familiarity of the tune but I once took a class from a well known sax player and in going through modes he made a comment that keys with more sharps were " brighter " for the sake of a descriptive term vs those with more flats. I know many will say this is nonsense but if we are imprinted early on with the reference scale of C maybe there's something to it. Just a thought.
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Keith, I think "brighter" is a fair description of the sharp keys.
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I sent emails on this question to Jamey Aebersold and Bert Ligon. Heard back from someone in Jamey's office, Matt Eve, but not Jamey directly.
Matt thinks of them as 'traditional' or 'standard' keys, not horn keys.
Further, even if a guitarist works without horns, if he ever wants to work with a horn section again, or with a new bassist, he'll need to know the tunes in the familiar keys. Matt closed with, "Of course, singers is a whole 'nother matter!"
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Is F# brighter than Gb? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I don't see it as a disadvantage at all. Actually, flat keys are very well laid out on the guitar. F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db - the most common ones, they all map out well at least with the fingering system that I learned from Jimmy Bruno.
Joe Pass and Pat Martino seem to use those fingerings as well. Actually, with good fingerings keys are not a problem at all. Given that you practice everything in all twelve keys, which you should.
I run most exercises through the cycle of fourths, except the very tune specific ones. Many people advocate practicing tunes in all twelve keys and who am I to disagree? It will make you OWN the tune and be ready for singers and their key-shenanigans, but I'm just too lazy to do that and my priorities are elsewhere.
Actually, tunes that have all the common chord progressions are good to do this with. Green Dolphin Street, Rhythm Changes, Blues Changes...
I practiced everything but tunes in all keys when I was laying the foundation for my playing and now it's paying off. By that I don't mean to imply that I think very highly of my playing, but as things are solidifying I notice that keys are not an issue. I can play all my chord voicings with any root, anywhere on the neck and I can instantly transpose my phrases to whatever key I'm going to play in.
Before I got into jazz I was an E-minor/G-major player. That was my comfortable key. So it's all about putting the work in and going at it relentlessly. My two cents.
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They're the same key. G is brighter than Eb. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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But is it brighter than D#?
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I don't think as many people do that as say they do. If they did, you would hear more standards taken in E and A, if only for variety's sake. But you almost never do. (Unless a singer requires it.) Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
And I'm okay with this. I'm at home in flat keys. But again, this isn't about me, or any other single person. It's about a CLASS of people----jazz musicians who don't play horns and sometimes play out or record without horns---and the questions is simple, "If jazz is normally played in flat keys because they're convenient for horns, why do non-horn players, when no horn players are about, tend to play in those same keys?" This is all the more vexing because jazz musicians pride themselves on being able to play things in all keys. Again, if for no other reason than variety, one might expect them to play in other keys when it presents no hardship to anyone on the bandstand (or in the studio.)
Are the majority of (frequently performed) classical guitar pieces in flat keys? (I have no idea.)
I like the way flat keys lay out on the guitar too, but it's not like I found it a problem to play in sharp keys when I was playing other styles of music. (And I don't find it a problem to play in them now, either.)
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Many solo guitar arrangements somehow seem to migrate to open string keys.
It happens also at times in guitar led ensembles.
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OK I am a musical dyslexic when it comes to theory so take this with a grain of salt, but each key has its own mood. To quote John White from Wiki article,
It should be noted that the key of the piece ... contributes an indefinable something to the evocative quality. This is very difficult to put into concrete terms, but slow movements in A-flat major do have something in common, as do fast movements in C minor, concerto allegros in D major, etc. There has been disagreement on this point. It has been argued, since standards of pitch level have changed over the centuries, that today we actually hear pieces written two centuries ago in a different (usually higher) key than that intended by the composer. It has been argued that the performer's concept of particular key is actually created by factors such as the 'feel' of the key or tonal center on the keyboard or its appearance in notation. Many musicians, however, tend toward an empirical acceptance of specific moods associated with specific keys, regardless of changes in pitch standards and other factors.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_%2music%29
—John D. White (1976)
So when you transpose a key you're really changing the effect of the piece. C, A, E etc. are fine for rock but may not create the right sound for jazz. Maybe jazz started out with more flats and sharps because it was a horn-centric music at the beginning, and that has come to define what we now know as jazz.
On a related note, I learned Autumn Leaves in E minor and still prefer to play it that way. When I play with my group though I have to switch to G minor, which I believe was the key it was written in. Apparently Wes and Joe play it in E minor, so I feel OK with my preference. I think it sounds more wistful in E minor, more jazzy (swings harder) in G minor.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 11-28-2012 at 05:45 PM.
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