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The concept of 'guitar keys' comes from folk/pop strummers playing open chord shapes.
Never thought much about 'guitar keys' for jazz; seems all the same to me.
Although the key of Eb can be a little annoying when trying to cover the bassline.
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12-01-2012 03:24 AM
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Not just that, Ryan. A piece in, e.g., A on the guitar will normally sound much 'bigger' than a piece in, e.g., Db, because of the sympathetic resonances created. The guitar is lop-sided in that sense, far more resonances tend to be created in sharp keys than flat ones (this doesn't happen on a piano, for example). You're right in that it is one of the reasons folk strummers prefer open chord shapes (and the sharp keys that they tend to imply), it gives them greater presence, not just because of the open strings themselves but because of the multiplying effect of the resonances set up. But it is a disadvantage in many contexts. It was for that reason that Narciso Yepes had four extra strings added to make his famous ten-string guitar, to compensate for this lop-sidedness.
Originally Posted by RyanM
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yes. it's very resonant in "jazz keys". Originally Posted by JohnRoss
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my 2 cents as an accordionist, trumpet player and guitar player. As a trumpet player, I usually had to transpose to D while the C instruments played in C, not vice versa. As a accordionist and guitar player, I transpose most songs to C (Am, G, Em and so forth) just find it easier to think my chords in those keys instead of the flat and sharp keys. though I can play in almost any key it is just easier for me. I think a lot of jazz standards were written in the flat keys for the singers myself. Takes it down a notch for their voices.
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Great. One keyboard player (blues, jazz, afro-cuban), I know personaly, Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
plays everything in C, transposing his synth for each tune.
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Keys like C#/Db, F#/Gb and B are really comfortable for piano playing, which is why a lot of classical keyboard pieces are written in these keys compared to modern music.
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All the blacks, nicely spread out in pentatonic, with just 2 whites to add.
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I'm pretty darn sure it's because of the horns. They came before the guitar in the jazz setting (probably other settings too).
I go to great lengths to avoid the open strings because I think they are pure evil when it comes to guitar education (so basically out of spite at this point), but I agree they are useful...e.g. Wes' ending chord on West Coast Blues is very tasty indeed (Bb6/9#11).
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Joe Pass said somewhere to not play more than one or two songs in the keys of E, A, and D because using open strings puts people to sleep. I probably botched it a bit, but it was something like that.
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Much/most of the classical guitar repertoire is written/played in the first four keys from the top of the key cycle [migrating in #'s] and including their relative minors, which starts to peter out around Bmi.
..And then one b and its relative minor [the saddest one].
That's about it.
I played classical guitar to concertizing level and much teaching for some 30+ years.
I still love some of the music, but I must say that since I made the full-time switch to
jazz I have found that when I pick up my classical guitar to have a little holiday from the
rigors of the jazz way of being, after playing a couple of pieces I've had enough of that
open string dominance.
I agree with what Joe Pass said, you will put the audience to sleep if you play more than 1 or 2
toons in E, A, D,......Interestingly though I noticed many moons ago that JP's fave key for the
blues seemed to be G, based on how many times he recorded it.
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Anybody who studies arranging for larger groups with different instrument sections would quickly find out the advantages of certain key signatures to allow for more productive workflow for the arranger to exploit the full range of the group and make parts less difficult to read and play. Putting together a good score takes a lot of skill.
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Interesting discussion. As a side note, I would like to suggest that any emotional or aesthetic response to a particular key needs to be considered in light of the socio-historical context. There was once upon a time much credence given by composers and music critics to the notion that specific keys had specific qualities. Speaking only for myself, I find that a historic idiosyncratic phenomenon. And I view keys as just descriptions of intervals and relationships of a specific group of notes.
Back to traditions of keys for tunes: we are so lucky as guitar players that for the most part, playing in any given key just means positioning the fretting hand up or down the board!
Also, who wants to hear a bunch of tunes played in the same key? Not me. I transpose for my voice. I am not lucky enough to worry about playing with horns or keyboards. And I can only dream of having the necessary insight and skill to arrange music successfully for an ensemble (good point cosmic!).
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I believe in playing any tune in any key, as you sometimes have to work with horn players or vocalists who favor certain keys.
With solo work I play in any key as well, but I'm not averse to using the "guitar-friendly" keys. I find I prefer certain keys for certain songs in terms of playability and use of open strings or in terms of voice leading.
As a vocalist, however, I find that some songs just sound brighter in keys like Bb or Db. Hard to explain why. And I love playing in F, too.
I noted references a while back in the thread to Jobim's Girl from Ipanema which I hear him playing predominantly in the key of F, as I usually play it as well. But sometimes I prefer playing in G for a higher vocal range, though it compromises some of the guitar options. Of course one can capo at the second fret.... ;-)
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The original recording of Ipanema was in Db, and Gilberto's solo versions are often in D. For most of my solo work, I like to arrange standards to take advantage of both open strings and the limited bass range of the conventional guitar (although I now play 7-string almost exclusively). An arrangement of "Ain't Misbehavin'" in A, for instance, is much more resonant than in the original key of Eb. I often sketch out my arrangements to create modulations into more comfortable horn keys if I'm working with sax or trumpet.
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This thread's still going? The question was answered by Limescout on the first page.
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I've been experimenting with alternate tunings. It seems plausible that tuning a guitar down a half step (to Eb) could potentially resolve a number of the expressed issues as long as one can mentally transpose the charts or manually tranpose prior to performing. Has anyone tried this?
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Jimi. Originally Posted by PatrolCaptain
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Stevie
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Eddie
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Allow me to rephrase my question. Have any of you tried alternate/different tunings to deal with charts written for horns, etc. and if you have what has your experience been? Is it easier, more difficult, if so for either, why and what others steps have you tried to improve on it or what tips would you offer to the uninitiated or inexperienced with jazz? I'm just starting to learn jazz guitar and I'm trying to learn from the experiences of others like yourselves. Thanks. Originally Posted by ColinO
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One you know some movable grips, they're, um, movable. Playing in Eb isn't really different from playing in E. You just have to get used to seeing more flats than sharps.
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In my own band I tend to write in whatever key I first heard the key in. Sometimes they're in guitar keys, sometimes they're in flat keys. I've never had a preference for either one. But my band rarely complains about the guitar keys. It's never a conversation point. And I've normally had a pianist and tenor sax player, who are both more comfortable with flat keys.
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There is no advantage to using Eb tuning for reading or playing jazz. If there were, we'd be doing it and advocating it.
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What's the typical mindset of a pianist? I thought piano music was all over the place, as far as keys go. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Originally Posted by PatrolCaptain
playing the guitar, especially becoming a competent reader, is difficult enough already. i would strongly advise against a timesuck like "alternate" tunings. *all* the jazz guitarists of the present and past practice(d) their craft in standard tuning...by what reach of the imagination will that not suffice for 'you'?Last edited by randalljazz; 11-21-2013 at 05:56 AM. Reason: kayn't spel
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