Autumn Leaves - modal analysis please

[JonR]

Having got myself into an unexpectedly tortuous debate in recent threads (particularly with Reg and oldtomfoolery), I'm realising my jazz theory education needs some shaking up.

It may be just some confusion over terminology, and talking at cross purposes (meaning the same thing but saying it differently), but I'm hoping I can get some clarity with this.

Autumn Leaves - as I think we can all agree - is a classic example of "functional harmony". I'm pretty comfortable with functional analysis of it, but I've seen it claimed that modal analysis of functional tunes is both possible and (at least sometimes) desirable and helpful. I have some vague idea of what that might mean (and don't necessarily disagree), but I'm hoping some of you can clarify it for me.

So, just the first 8 bars, in Bb major / G minor:

Cm7 - F7 - Bbmaj7 - Ebmaj7 - Am7b5 - D7 - Gm(6?) - Gm(7?)

My questions are:

1. How would (or could) this be analysed modally? IOW, what does "modal analysis" mean in this respect?
2. What can that analysis bring to a performance of the tune (specifically an improvisation on it) that a functional analysis can't?

Secondary questions (again for clarification) might be:
3. Is there any difference here between a "modal" analysis and a chord-scale theory (CST) analysis. If so, what?
4. If there is any difference between "functional" harmonic theory and "traditional" harmonic theory, what might that be?

Obviously, any other comments (including helpful rephrasing of my questions if necessary) are welcome.

TIA.

[Reg]

Great idea Jon...

There is no difference between a modal analysis and a traditional analysis... same goal, different set of guideline for analysis. Different references and relationships to define use of terms.

We generally think and hear traditional analysis from a Major/Minor tonal basis... reference to one tone, one tonic. We generally use guidelines for analysis and our reference to tonality from Riemann's Functional Harmony with adaptions to explain chromatic alterations, modulations and anything else that doesn't fit into that Box.
We accept that relative major and minor keys share the same diatonic system.
We tend to accept the similarities and ignore the differences... Phrygian music is and has always been a thorn in this system...

From a modal analysis point of view... that would be a set of guidelines based on Maj. or Ionian and Min. Nat or Harmonic. That would be the tonal system. There 's plenty room for confusion, but those are the general guideline...The way most hear and understand music.

That is one modal analysis... Deciding to impose a different modal analysis would be possible and would give a different base for developing relationships...

An application from a concepts could have different choices of where to develop from;

1)access to different views of same music which could lead to different relationships and where they could go.

2)different methods of defining and creating cadences.

Your questions...
1) Would depend on what you choose for reference... this is obviously very standard tune... but I'll try and make different modal analysis and how could effect performance.

2) It's just a different reference, same collection of note could just have different relationships... where they begin and order of importance in system of analysis. When I play I always reflect an analysis... internally or externally, conscious or unconscious.

3) Chord scale theory is an applications of modal theory with a preset collection of predetermined analysis(s) reflective of common jazz practice. Obviously subjective.

4) Functional harmonic theory generally makes reference to reasons for chordal movement and reasons for. Traditional harmony usually use those aspects but also covers fundamentals of harmony by it's self... not just why one chord follows another... but the chord in relationship to it's self and any context.

I have work to do... have session and gig latter... I will make some examples and try and break down the details best I can... and hopefully open some doors to how all this BS can relate to one's playing... real performance skills which we all can relate to.

Reg

[JonR]

Thanks Reg - all pretty much understood (or sinking in anyway).
Looking forward to more detail (no rush, when you have time).

[fep]

I'm looking forward to this because I feel confused on this topic. I know from Reg's other posts that he often uses the notes from some mode of melodic minor in his analysis/playing. Not sure that will fit for this tune.

[mr. beaumont]

Chords as written, the modal analysis doesn't get too deep, the tune's diatonic...

But any minor key tune can be looked at from a MM lens. But still, you can break it up pretty easily, the movements are the movements.

By the way, it also drives me crazy when people say this tune is in Bb (or G)...this is a very minor tune, IMHO...

Anybody ever hear John Moulder do this? Whole tune over a pedal tone (the root of the i)...awesome.

[JonR]

Chords as written, the modal analysis doesn't get too deep, the tune's diatonic...

But any minor key tune can be looked at from a MM lens. But still, you can break it up pretty easily, the movements are the movements.

By the way, it also drives me crazy when people say this tune is in Bb (or G)...this is a very minor tune, IMHO...

Agreed. The opening ii-V-I is deliberately deceptive, IMO. The lyrics definitely indicate a minor mood, and the harmony fits.

Anybody ever hear John Moulder do this? Whole tune over a pedal tone (the root of the i)...awesome.

Hmmm... now that sounds like one kind of modal interpretation, at least...

[JonR]

I'm looking forward to this because I feel confused on this topic. I know from Reg's other posts that he often uses the notes from some mode of melodic minor in his analysis/playing. Not sure that will fit for this tune.

There's definitely melodic minor options, as there is with any minor key tune (eg 7th mode on the V7, aka altered scale).
In this one in particular, the melody actually employs melodic minor, on the 4th phrase of the A section.

But I suspect Reg has more extensive thoughts in that direction...

[Reg]

Hey Jon.

I'll try and video some examples today. But first. Do you understand Modal Interchange, somewhat like borrowing concept, just more detailed with jazz practice. Have you gone through the mechanical process of actually writing out all the possibilities with their RN analysis and possible complete pitch collections.

Like in key of C, from relative Minor... A-... to parallel minor... C-..., now substitute the rest of the Minor scales, Dorian, etc... for that parallel minor collection of chords and you have new collection of Modal interchange chords to borrow from.

Now take the next step... substitute the rest of the scales or modes, Mixo, Lyd, .... Phry. and loc. if you didn't put those in the minor modal interchange collection...

Now the rest of the different scales... Harmonic minor and major, Melodic Minor etc... pentatonics all the symmetric or synthetic.

You'll end up with a lot of references for Chord Patterns beginning on "C", all with a reference to where the chords are from.

You'll begin to see and hear other sources for analysis of chord progressions which open many jazz doors that might have been ignored before.

Getting into Modal analysis... are you aware of any methods of modal analysis concepts...
Character pitch use, general mechanics of compositional use which becomes methods of analysis. Again this begins with the mechanical process of writing out modal info. for all scales and their degrees,(modes). Becoming aware of what notes and intervals define modal characteristics of all the different Modes... We're using Modes in standard jazz usage... to define degrees of all the scales...

Anyway might help understand what modal analysis begins and how can be used when playing in a jazz style, both comping and soloing.

These comments aren't only directed to Jon... anyone who hasn't gone through this very mechanical exercise... should. It's not difficult and will educate your ears from a jazz perspective.

This is some of that basic jazz musician skill thing, you don't need to understand... but you do need to be able to hear.

Reg

[bako]

One thing I did/do is practice against a drone, drawing from 28 modes (7X4) major,melodic minor,harmonic minor and harmonic major.
I weave together possible progression sequences from 2 or more modes.
This has helped open up my hearing some for passing chords and alternative harmonizations.
I guess I should add diminished, augmented, whole tones, pentatonic and hexatonic to my regimen just to be thorough about this.

An even better methodology would be to play Reg's jazz gigging schedule for a year.
Daily practice in real time.

[JonR]

Hey Jon.

I'll try and video some examples today. But first. Do you understand Modal Interchange, somewhat like borrowing concept, just more detailed with jazz practice.

Yes.

Have you gone through the mechanical process of actually writing out all the possibilities with their RN analysis and possible complete pitch collections.

Not exactly...

Like in key of C, from relative Minor... A-... to parallel minor... C-..., now substitute the rest of the Minor scales, Dorian, etc... for that parallel minor collection of chords and you have new collection of Modal interchange chords to borrow from.

Sure, I understand all that...

Now take the next step... substitute the rest of the scales or modes, Mixo, Lyd, .... Phry. and loc. if you didn't put those in the minor modal interchange collection...

Now the rest of the different scales... Harmonic minor and major, Melodic Minor etc... pentatonics all the symmetric or synthetic.

No I haven't done all that in writing. I have done similar exercises in the past, but not totally comprehensive ones - mainly because, at some point, I stopped seeing the point. (It seemed to get less and less relevant to practical use.)

You'll end up with a lot of references for Chord Patterns beginning on "C", all with a reference to where the chords are from.

Right.

You'll begin to see and hear other sources for analysis of chord progressions which open many jazz doors that might have been ignored before.

Sure. So far, I've not felt the need, in my forays into jazz, to go beyond what you may regard as fairly straightforward stuff. I don't like to have too much to think about, and I'm far from bored with what I know already.

Getting into Modal analysis... are you aware of any methods of modal analysis concepts...

Well, I'm not sure. I know about modal interpretations of chords, modal options etc, but I'm not sure how far that goes into modal "analysis", especially on functional sequences. That's why I started this topic.

Character pitch use, general mechanics of compositional use which becomes methods of analysis. Again this begins with the mechanical process of writing out modal info. for all scales and their degrees,(modes). Becoming aware of what notes and intervals define modal characteristics of all the different Modes... We're using Modes in standard jazz usage... to define degrees of all the scales...

Yes, I get that much.

Anyway might help understand what modal analysis begins and how can be used when playing in a jazz style, both comping and soloing.

Yes...

These comments aren't only directed to Jon... anyone who hasn't gone through this very mechanical exercise... should. It's not difficult and will educate your ears from a jazz perspective.

OK, but for the moment I was hoping for a specific example of modal analysis of those 8 bars.
I realise there could be many options. I'm also thinking that perhaps what I mean by "analysis" is not what you mean...

I do realise one can take each chord of that progression and think of several scales that might fit it - regardless of key function. I am presuming "modal analysis" is something beyond that. (Because I don't get anything useful from the modal options or perspectives that I know about.)

This is some of that basic jazz musician skill thing, you don't need to understand... but you do need to be able to hear.

Well yes! Playing the various options is the only way to decide how useful they are: I realise that. The ones I know about (other than the usual functional/chromatic ones) simply don't appeal.
But I'm still curious about other theoretical possibilities.

[bako]

II V I idea integrating 4 scales

Ab Major

X C G Bb Eb X ---Cm7

X Db F Bb Eb --- DbMa6/9

C Melodic Minor

X Eb G B D X ---F13#11

Gb Melodic Minor

X Eb Ab Db Gb X ---F7alt

Bb Major

X D G C F X ---BbMa6/9

The phrygian Cm7 adds the possibility of Db and Ab
The lydian dominant F7 introduces B
The alt scale offers Gb Ab Cb Db
Bb major let's call it the home team

Nothing profound here, just an example of different tonal areas expanding the note palette of a simple cadence.

[fep]

II V I idea integrating 4 scales

Ab Major

X C G Bb Eb X ---Cm7

X Db F Bb Eb --- DbMa6/9

C Melodic Minor

X Eb G B D X ---F13#11

Gb Melodic Minor

X Eb Ab Db Gb X ---F7alt

Bb Major

X D G C F X ---BbMa6/9

The phrygian Cm7 adds the possibility of Db and Ab
The lydian dominant F7 introduces B
The alt scale offers Gb Ab Cb Db
Bb major let's call it the home team

Nothing profound here, just an example of different tonal areas expanding the note palette of a simple cadence.

Thanks bako, just to make sure I understand.

The candence is Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7

In this example, over the:

Cm7 - play/think Cm aeolian and then Db lydian

F7 - play Cm melodic minor and then F altered

Bb - Ionian

Is that correct? Or are you talking of chord playing? Or both?

[bako]

The candence is Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7

In this example, over the:

Cm7 - play/think Cm aeolian and then Db lydian

F7 - play Cm melodic minor and then F altered

Bb - Ionian

Is that correct? Or are you talking of chord playing? Or both?

The cadence is Cm7 F7 BbMa7. It is also the first 3 chords of Autumn Leaves.

I view chord playing and melodic playing as part of the same continuum.
It is a question of what notes we choose to involve and the relationships we establish between them.

I indicated Cm7 DbMa6/9 as part of Ab Major
I was thinking about the note Db. C Phrygian offers both Cm7 and Db
The F7 scales/modes are standard IV9#11 and VII7alt melodic minor stuff.
BbMa7 is Ionian.

Technically BbMa7 could be lydian but the E is further afield from the next chord Ebma7.

I could establish lydian:

Bb Major

X D G C F X --- BbMa6/9

F Major

X E Bb D A X --- Em7b5

Bb Major

X Eb G D F X --- EbMa9

G X F Bb C X --- Gm7sus

but I am more likely to treat BbMa7 as Ionian and focus on possible paths to the EbMa7

When I study modal areas I over think all this stuff.
When I play I just focus on the different notes I want to engage and try to be aware of different associated note collections.
A harmonic area provides more material to work with than any individual cool note will.

[Reg]

Ok so if I try and call an apple an orange...

The simple modal analysis is with use of characteristic pitches. Either as a cadential note or as note of modal implication... the difference is we're not using intervals as cadence device for creating chordal movement, we're using notes.

We can use that characteristic pitch, (CP), to define cadence through resolution... Chords with CP refered to as Cadence chords, resolve to chords with out that CP. Typically there is only one tonic note or chord.

Or we can use CP as device to imply the modal tonic area... the pitch becomes the tonal devise to imply tonic... The tonic being the implied mode. Example being... Lydian has a CP of #11... so emphisis or melodic and harmonic implication of that #11...

Either way can imply the desired modal area. Obviously this application isn't as black and white... but is and has been used composition ... and the point of analysis is to represent the composition... not what one wants to define. Part of jazz composition is the performance and improve.

Fairly easy to hear without use of tritone in traditional Maj/min functional system use... but becomes much more interesting with typical jazz use of all harmonic systems being used simultaneously.

Just as there are typical Chord Patterns from Maj/min functional harmony, there are standard modal chord patterns... usually involving step wise motion with respective chords from desired mode.

Another modal type of harmonic use to create motion or function which should be reflected in analysis is from jazz use of Melodic Minor.

Typically there are no avoid notes and once MM is implied... access to all chordal structures derived from MM as source are available... both diatonic to the scale and through standard sub methods... use of both tritones and subs with all typical related chords, from chord patterns.

For Autumn leaves...

Basically the chord movement is C-7 to Bbmaj7 and A-7b5 to G-7,
pretty standard modal chord pattern and use of CP functionally moving modally. G aeolian. The V7 chords are ornamental in modal analysis.

I could structure my improve from that reference and create relationships using any other modal characteristic or other harmonic systems... all with reference to my modal analysis.

Just as traditional functional harmony id extremely vanilla... so is modal harmony...

Within that short chord progression I could also break sections into micro modal areas... Each chord could represent a modal tonal system... different applications of harmonic use of each two bars.

The video I'll post is example of that concept... Simple modal analysis and ornamental chords... then modally develop each two bar section with modally characteristic chord patterns...

The video is loose... Sorry, I do get rummy ... I don't sleep much, but check it out and I''l try and answer any questions to help clarify... I don't have the time,(or energy), to really plan and lay out perfectly... but there are no costs either...

Reg

[jazzuki]

Great video Reg .Pity you dont teach!

[JonR]

II V I idea integrating 4 scales

Ab Major

X C G Bb Eb X ---Cm7

X Db F Bb Eb --- DbMa6/9

C Melodic Minor

X Eb G B D X ---F13#11

Gb Melodic Minor

X Eb Ab Db Gb X ---F7alt

Bb Major

X D G C F X ---BbMa6/9

The phrygian Cm7 adds the possibility of Db and Ab
The lydian dominant F7 introduces B
The alt scale offers Gb Ab Cb Db
Bb major let's call it the home team

Nothing profound here, just an example of different tonal areas expanding the note palette of a simple cadence.

Understood.

And - more to the point! - that does sound very nice.

I'm still not sure a modal viewpoint explains why it sounds nice, but maybe that's not important. I see the point that it introduces new possibilities from a non-functional perspective - and yet still feels, in some way, like a functional progression.

(The F altered chord is arguably not a modal interpretation, and is a familiar functional move. But the others are stranger and equally attractive.)

Thanks bako - you've at least 50% convinced me...

[JonR]

Thanks Reg, that's fantastic stuff - going to take me a while to work through that, in principle if not in detail.

Maybe just a few comments on the text (not the video yet)

Another modal type of harmonic use to create motion or function which should be reflected in analysis is from jazz use of Melodic Minor.

Typically there are no avoid notes and once MM is implied... access to all chordal structures derived from MM as source are available... both diatonic to the scale and through standard sub methods... use of both tritones and subs with all typical related chords, from chord patterns.

Right... that much I'm reasonably familiar with...

For Autumn leaves...

Basically the chord movement is C-7 to Bbmaj7 and A-7b5 to G-7,
pretty standard modal chord pattern and use of CP functionally moving modally. G aeolian. The V7 chords are ornamental in modal analysis.

Interesting and useful statement.

The video is loose... Sorry, I do get rummy ... I don't sleep much, but check it out and I''l try and answer any questions to help clarify... I don't have the time,(or energy), to really plan and lay out perfectly... but there are no costs either...

Reg

Thanks again for your time, Reg, much appreciated. As I said before, it will take a while for this to sink in, because so much of it is ahead of where I'm at. (Or if conceptually I'm getting it, I'm some way from applying it in practice.)

[bako]

Jon,

Understanding the parameters and limitations of terminology is not my strongest point.
Everything I presented is a familiar functional move within the note collection they are drawn from.
I was trying to illustrate expanding beyond the note source of what the literal chord symbols indicate.
Is that modal or functional?

Take the 1st 4 chords Cm7 F7 BbMa7 EbMa7
Pure Bb Major scale on the surface

Think of ways that would allow the integration of what Jimmy Bruno refers to as outside notes
and what I think of as inside notes from an alternate note source.

B C#/Db E F#/Gb G#/Ab

modal or functional alteration?

2nd hand story told to me by a friend:

Guitar student asks Brad Shepik (great jazz guitarist in NYC) to teach him cool substitutes and reharmonizations.
Brad responded to ask him again after he knew 200 songs.

Kind of profound to me anyway. What is a substitution in one song is the basic changes of another.
Different songs get to the same destinations taking different paths to get there.
The basic harmonic info gleaned from one song becomes the interesting variation in another.

I made a half joke about taking on Reg's gigging life for a year as a study path.
Reg has often talked about being aware of standard harmonic moves and cliches.
The constant gigging is the laboratory where informational concepts either integrate themselves into action or fade away.
Reg has put in his time on the bandstand.

Basically the chord movement is C-7 to Bbmaj7 and A-7b5 to G-7,

The process of simplifying is important. The fewer appointments we have to keep the greater the variety of paths we can take to reach the destination.

[mr. beaumont]

I think simplification is important, but in a tune like Autumn Leaves--it's already simple...here the new sounds lie in looking at every chord as a different "harmonic environment." That's how I'd go about it, at least.

Sometimes it's nice to work from complex to simple or simple to complex within a solo...start by thinking key centers and then work towards highlighting every chord...

[Reg]

Hey bako...
I always dig your posts...your never hung up on terminology. Always focus on the point of the terminology, then get the terms to fit.

Yea nothing is inside or outside without relationships.

Your view of songs, their chord patterns etc... is exactly how I play, what happens is you develop a resume of chord patterns that imply or already have established relationships with specific harmonic areas and specific use... That chord pattern is basically One chord...The better you understand the concepts that make the chord patterns work, the easier to develop different relationships through different applications...

I do try and have method(s) or system(s) of organization for the paths we may take and always have a Form... even if that form is not fixed.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

All this reminds me of the Mark Twain quote, "I don’t give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way."

[JonR]

Jon,

Understanding the parameters and limitations of terminology is not my strongest point.
Everything I presented is a familiar functional move within the note collection they are drawn from.
I was trying to illustrate expanding beyond the note source of what the literal chord symbols indicate.
Is that modal or functional?

Modal, I'd say - inasmuch as it ignores the simple function of the chord (ie its role in the overall key progression).

Of course, if the modal choices produce lines which enhance the harmonic function, that's cool. But I'm guessing they don't have to. All depends on what we think "sounds good"...

Eg, thinking phrygian on the Cm7 is ignoring the function. But it may produce interesting passing chromatics to the next chord, which is (IMO) a "functional" move.
(Although I'm aware - thanks to a document Reg sent me - that the meaning of "functional" is up for grabs to some extent.)

My view would then be that if the new chords or lines can be seen to have a functional purpose, then the modal interpretation is coincidental - means nothing. It's just a kind of trick or short cut to give us a selection of possible chromatics.

Eg, that's the case with thinking Gb melodic minor on the F7 chord. The reason it works is that it produces a whole load of half-step voice-leading (functional) moves on to the tonic - as you showed with your example in fact. The parallel between F altered and 7th mode Gb melodic minor is pure coincidence. Gb melodic minor has no meaning in relation to F7 (or key of Bb major or minor). When we make all those alterations to an F7 chord (to its 5th and 9th) we happen to produce a set of notes which is enharmonic with a melodic minor scale, that's all. We don't need to know melodic minor scales at all to get the idea.
IOW, I don't regard it as a modal "analysis" to envisage Gb melodic minor on F7. Analysis, surely, is supposed to reveal hidden meaning?

Take the 1st 4 chords Cm7 F7 BbMa7 EbMa7
Pure Bb Major scale on the surface

Think of ways that would allow the integration of what Jimmy Bruno refers to as outside notes and what I think of as inside notes from an alternate note source.

B C#/Db E F#/Gb G#/Ab

modal or functional alteration?

Depends how the chromatics are used. If used as passing notes from one diatonic chord to another, then they're "functional" (IMO). If used purely as colour, chord by chord, then they're "modal".

In this respect - when playing a functional sequence - I prefer to think functionally, and enhance the functional moves with chromaticism occasionally. I need no modal thinking to do this. In most functional sequences, I don't find the time to dwell modally on any one chord. (An exception might be the tonic chord, where I might choose either ionian or lydian in major keys, and aeolian, dorian or melodic minor in minor keys._

I realise when I say "modally" there I'm talking about a specific application of a chord-scale. Not just seeing a mode as a selection of notes which could functional or modal purposes.

2nd hand story told to me by a friend:

Guitar student asks Brad Shepik (great jazz guitarist in NYC) to teach him cool substitutes and reharmonizations.
Brad responded to ask him again after he knew 200 songs.

Yes, I've heard similar stories elsewhere. To me, that's about vocabulary, building a library of melodic ideas, as well as functional substitution ideas.

Kind of profound to me anyway. What is a substitution in one song is the basic changes of another.
Different songs get to the same destinations taking different paths to get there.
The basic harmonic info gleaned from one song becomes the interesting variation in another.

Sure

The process of simplifying is important. The fewer appointments we have to keep the greater the variety of paths we can take to reach the destination.

Yes, interesting viewpoint - to actually remove some of the chords in the path, rather than inserting new ones - or at least before we think about inserting new ones.

[timscarey]

Cm7 - F7 - Bbmaj7 - Ebmaj7 - Am7b5 - D7 - Gm(6?) - Gm(7?)

My questions are:

1. How would (or could) this be analysed modally? IOW, what does "modal analysis" mean in this respect?
2. What can that analysis bring to a performance of the tune (specifically an improvisation on it) that a functional analysis can't?

Secondary questions (again for clarification) might be:
3. Is there any difference here between a "modal" analysis and a chord-scale theory (CST) analysis. If so, what?
4. If there is any difference between "functional" harmonic theory and "traditional" harmonic theory, what might that be?

Obviously, any other comments (including helpful rephrasing of my questions if necessary) are welcome.

TIA.

The way I look at it is that "tonal" and "modal" harmony are two different things. Trying to analyze this progression as it relates to modal harmony would honestly be a waste of time and yield nothing new.

This is a tonal progression and should be understood as such for clarity.

Modal analysis is for modal chord progressions, where a tonal analysis will be overly complicated and lead to no new understanding.

It's the same thing with blues, trying to analyze a blues tune according to either tonal or modal harmonic function would be overly confusing and not really lead to any new information. I did a post on it a few months ago, in my view there is a distinct difference between...

Tonal Harmony
Modal Harmony
Blues harmony
no harmony

and each category should be looked at through the lens of "it's theory" or else people start asking questions like "what modes should I use for the first 8 bars of Autumn Leaves" which IMO should be answered.... "Autumn leaves is not modal, so lets look at another way to approach these changes"

my two cents.

[Reg]

Roles of function can be different depending on what functional system is being used to define relationships. They are all going on all the time... we simply hear what we choose to, or are capable of .

Why did we choose to force a major functional system on Minor... to fit into to our narrow view of what function is. The divine power of the tritone.
Anyway one functional system was expanded to cover compositional practice etc...
Use of the term function has more than one meaning.

Jon... what defines whether something is functional or chromatic. Might the answer come from what the relationship is...

Generally voice leading is not used as a functional concept... it's a application of a functional defining system. simply a melodic performance device to help enhance that system. If you don't voice lead... the function will still happen.

Using altered II V's to functionally resolve to a major chord is common modal interchange or access through deceptive resolutions of dominants... yada yada.

One jazz practice use of Melodic Minor if derived from Modal functional concept. But instead of single notes being used to define function... the entire collection of notes from MM are used... they function as one. Similar to how chord patterns function as One chord.

I also like to think and hear maj/min functionally... and am aware of what the system is and what it implies, but I'm also aware and can hear the same passage in different harmonically functional systems with different implications... whether their actually played of not.

Must be time for lousy analogy... when I look at a basically two color picture, I don't ignore the other colors just because they might be overpowered. Just because we have been taught to hear the tritone as the all powerful functional device... doesn't mean the other systems don't count....

Eventually you don't need to simplify... to be aware or hear... You can make choices as compared to being told.

[bako]

Hey Tim,

In regards of the idea of "no harmony" perhaps what some refer to as atonal.

Does atonality exist?
I like the idea of centricity because it embraces both Major/Minor, modal, blues and shifting systems.
When the centricity of a primary pitch area(s) fail to establish themself, is that no harmony or just something moving too rapidly for our present understanding to grasp?

Many things that I understand today were mysteries in the past and appeared to be random.
Is there a hidden order or randomness in the universe?

Your thoughts?

Best,
Bako