Autumn Leaves - modal analysis please

[JonR]

I don't understand that comment, Jon.

I meant I thought the answer would be too obvious, so maybe there was another point to your question.

Ok, this makes a lot of sense.
BTW I like the challenge, because it leads to more fun!!

Yes, sometimes I do find challenges exciting.
I've always been driven by what excites or moves me about music, and I may well indulge in what others would perceive as "hard work" in pursuit of it (but I never see it as "hard", or even as "work").
But as soon as it feels like hard work, that's when I stop.

[mike walker]

I've always been driven by what excites or moves me about music, )

+1.

[JonR]

Just to add to that:
Often what excites and moves me is the effect I see music having on an audience - more than the effect it has on me.(Goes back to the first time I saw people dancing to a band I was in: unforgettable thrill.)

So I've always really enjoyed playing music (genres or specific songs) that I wouldn't choose to listen to myself, if people clearly like to hear it. I can always find enjoyment in performance, if I can't always in listening.
I always think of that Duke Ellington quote (I can't now trace the source):
"There's only two kinds of music: good and bad. I like both kinds."
IOW, any kind of music is enjoyed by somebody. It all has a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't exist. You can't be snobbish about any of it.
The only time music is really "bad" is when it's badly played. (And I don't think Duke meant that kind...)

[mike walker]

Just to add to that:
Often what excites and moves me is the effect I see music having on an audience - more than the effect it has on me.(Goes back to the first time I saw people dancing to a band I was in: unforgettable thrill.)

So I've always really enjoyed playing music (genres or specific songs) that I wouldn't choose to listen to myself, if people clearly like to hear it. I can always find enjoyment in performance, if I can't always in listening.
I always think of that Duke Ellington quote (I can't now trace the source):
"There's only two kinds of music: good and bad. I like both kinds."
IOW, any kind of music is enjoyed by somebody. It all has a purpose, otherwise it wouldn't exist. You can't be snobbish about any of it.
The only time music is really "bad" is when it's badly played. (And I don't think Duke meant that kind...)

Yes I understand that.
I have played in so many situations to so many audiences.
I have to be there now because I love what I'm doing and I hope that translates, somehow, to an audience. If not, I could never allow that fact
to encroach upon my love of the music, and the reason I play it.
I'm sure snobbishness, in whatever guise, can separate a musician from so many beautiful colours that music has to offer. Duke's quote is a good one.

[fep]

Great thread, the fog has lifted and I'm understanding this whole concept much better.

Are there any good books dedicated to this topic? This topic as discussed/demonstrated by Bako, Mike and Reg.

For me, I'd much prefer to analyze a composition or someones playing that actually 'get's in that persons head'. I think if I took Reg's playing on that video and tried to analyze if from a functional analysis approach, I'd completely missing the mark.

As such, for me, this goes beyond a comparison of analyzing modally or functionally, this is about analyzing in a way that the player is thinking.

Reg's video and Bako and Mike's comments are a rare opportunity to get the analysis straight from the source.

Thanks all.

[Reg]

Sure,

I should have clarified a bit, IMO there are chords which function as tonic chords in most modal tunes, but the tune itself has no central tonic. I'm thinking of tunes like "humpty dumpty", "Vera Cruz", "bright size life", "inner urge", etc... tunes which have long sections with no clear reference to a tonic.

Now, it's important to keep in mind that the majority of tunes which use modal harmony mix it with other styles of harmony as well, the tunes I mentioned above do so to varying degrees.

My view of modal analysis is pretty straight forward and has two major purposes at the end of the day. One is to inform me of the most "inside" scale for a particular chord in a modal progression, the other is to determine if a movement from one chord to another will be a resolution or a non-resolution. The former gives me choices when playing over tunes, the latter informs my composition and helps me anticipate how the chords will sound while reading.

I consider (in the general world of jazz harmony) there to be 3 "levels" if you will, of harmonic function in modal harmony.... keep in mind, this is modal harmony, not tonal or blues.

1. Tonic Diatonic (Ionian Major-Aeolian Minor-Sometimes Phrygian minor)
2. Non-Tonic Diatonic (Dorian Minor-Lydian Major-Locrian Minor)
3. Melodic Minor (MM, Dorian -2, Lydian +5, Locrian +2)

you might notice that 2 differs from 1 by only one raised pitch, and that the same is true from 2 to 3, only 1 note different. I call these the Variable tones, I think reg calls them the CP?

I did not include dominant chords in this list because they are the trademarks of tonal and blues harmony and take us out of a modal environment. (just an opinion)

Each chord type (no doms in this list) has several options as to it's 7 note scale..

Maj7 - Ionian/Lyd
Min7 - Aeo/Dor/Phry/Dor -2
Min7(-5) - Loc/Loc +2/Super Locrian
Min6 - Dor/MM/Dor -2
Maj(-5) - Lydian/Lydian +5

What I consider "modal analysis" is to look at a modal progression and determine which scale choice of each chord is most congruent with the notes of the previous and following chords. This gives me the chord's "inside choice scale"

As you can see above, each mode is either tonic, non-tonic, or melodic minor. A quick and easy rule is that 3 resolves to 2 or 1 and 2 resolves to 1. generally speaking, movement in the opposite direction will be movement away from a modal tonic.

Also, once the inside choice mode for each chord is determined, you can also find the parent scale for each chord and look at how the progression is moving relative to the circle of fifths.

I have a method for determining the parent scales for Melodic minor modes and will share it if anyone cares, but it's kind of a long explanation.

So, that's what I consider modal analysis, because at the end of it, I can see if the chords are functioning as Tonic, Non-Tonic, or Melodic Minor. Each category with it's own tenancies toward stability.

Keep in mind, I am in no way advocating improvising using only the "inside choice scales" there are tons of ways to approach improvising, but I do think this gives me a pretty good handle on how chords in a modal progression are functioning, and how to create and resolve tension in my compositions without using dominant chords and without reference to a clear key center (modal)

Hey Tim thanks, I like the system.
Nice way to organize how one can approach jazz tunes that don't quite fit into what has been taught as tonally correct...

Still seems like what the basis for determining momentary reference,(tonally), is still based on Maj/Min defining pitch organizing system... just ignoring the Dom. function. The modal aspect of the system is based on same set of notes as Maj/Min. I'm not implying wrong or right... Takes modal concept to a preset collection of guidelines based on preset definitions of pitch collections...

I've always though of Modality to deal with choice of notes which create organized relationships... your system of modal analysis take concept to next level... choice of scales create organized relationships... I like it.

As you said... there are other musical functional systems usually also influencing, For example, I've always thought of Humpty Dumpty as in Eb... with use of interval organization of root or chordal movement. The majority of the tune is built on Eb Har. Min with constant structure Maj and Min chordal use. Chick always used 3rd for relationships.
Functionally Eb, Bb and F... pretty typical jazz root movement... and while soloing... there are plenty of V or subV implications.

Vera Cruz... very tonal with modal interchange and pedals.
Brightsize...I've always heard as a pop or rock tune.
Inner Urge, again interval organization of root motion.

All fun tunes to play, with right audiences.

But I can see and hear how your modal system of analysis works well, but that's pretty much the point I've been trying to make...there are many pitch collections to structure a modal system around... and most of them could work...

What would be the choice of mode which the system might make reference to... If you were to change the tonic diatonic... harmonic functional chord types... what would happen?

Again Tim thanks, I really dig the explanation...

Reg

[Reg]

Hey Fep... thanks. I think one of the goals on this forum is to open doors...

Jon... no problems. What's wrong with us having a difference of opinion,
what's in or out, point of any analysis. Life in the jazz world would be pretty boring if we all played and composed the same.

Reg

[JonR]

Hey Fep... thanks. I think one of the goals on this forum is to open doors...

Jon... no problems. What's wrong with us having a difference of opinion,
what's in or out, point of any analysis. Life in the jazz world would be pretty boring if we all played and composed the same.

Reg

Thanks Reg. I consider myself still scratching around in the foothils of this music. Turning over stones here and there. Tripping up on others . Sometimes looking up at the mountain tops and shaking my head... more in wonder than despair, and still enjoying my adventures down here.

Keep up the good work.

[mr. beaumont]

my take with jazz is not to use theory to explain, only to show options.

"why?" is less important than "does it sound good?"

This at least helps me sleep

[jster]

Also, once the inside choice mode for each chord is determined, you can also find the parent scale for each chord and look at how the progression is moving relative to the circle of fifths.

I have a method for determining the parent scales for Melodic minor modes and will share it if anyone cares, but it's kind of a long explanation.

I'd love to hear the details either here in the thread or in a PM. I would have naively thought that the parent scale for an inside choice mode in your system would have been either the major scale or the MM scale. But obviously you have something else in mind. And it is interesting that you still see the circle of fifths active. So please pass on whatever you have handy.

And Reg, thanks for the video. I worked on it for a couple of hours last night and will do more tonight.

[timscarey]

I want to preface this by saying that this is not MY system, it was taught to me and is used by a lot of people in one way or another, I just teach a lot so I work on creating a method for teaching and learning it.

Still seems like what the basis for determining momentary reference,(tonally), is still based on Maj/Min defining pitch organizing system... just ignoring the Dom. function. The modal aspect of the system is based on same set of notes as Maj/Min. I'm not implying wrong or right... Takes modal concept to a preset collection of guidelines based on preset definitions of pitch collections...

totally, it's all based on the diatonic harmonic model because I feel like that's the reference for how we hear harmony. Yes, it does not include the dominant function because in my view, the dominant function is tonal and this discussion has been about modal harmony exclusively. There are still "inside choice" scales for dominant chords etc, but dominants are a different beast and not part of modal harmony (IMO)

I've always though of Modality to deal with choice of notes which create organized relationships... your system of modal analysis take concept to next level... choice of scales create organized relationships... I like it.

Thanks, and honestly, the difference between the possible scales for each chord type is only 1 note, so really, I think we're talking about the same thing, it's the presence (or lack of) the characteristic pitch that determines the mode. In this theory, the notes will carry over from one chord to the next to create an implied CP independent of what the melody is doing. Sometimes the "outside choice" is really what is desired.

As you said... there are other musical functional systems usually also influencing, For example, I've always thought of Humpty Dumpty as in Eb... with use of interval organization of root or chordal movement. The majority of the tune is built on Eb Har. Min with constant structure Maj and Min chordal use. Chick always used 3rd for relationships.
Functionally Eb, Bb and F... pretty typical jazz root movement... and while soloing... there are plenty of V or subV implications.

Yep, I can see that, the tune is very much tied to Eb, I was just trying to choose tunes that people might know off the top of their head to help the discussion along. Even for the tunes I mentioned, thinking this way is a bit much. In my day to day, a lot of the music I play and write is very modal with almost no V-I going on at all. The thing is, it's mostly original music that would not really help the conversation due to people having to listen to it or get a chart. I will admit that the songs I mentioned are not the best examples.

What would be the choice of mode which the system might make reference to... If you were to change the tonic diatonic... harmonic functional chord types... what would happen?

I think I see what you are asking, correct me if I'm wrong but...

If you change the chord types, then the variable tones will change as well for each chord, and thus the modal possibilities will change.

Another way of looking at this whole thing is... the chord progression itself is really a "mode progression" and the goal is to have as little change as possible in the "key sig" from chord to chord. The progression does this on it's own, we can either go with it or against it, but it has a system.

we can learn the system and then determine whether or not a particular movement is a resolution or not, with dominant chords it's easy and tonal to determine, but without them (modal) there is really no system in place. This theory is barking up that tree.

Again Tim thanks, I really dig the explanation...

Thank you reg, I've learned tons from reading your posts over the years. If it wasn't for you, I would have never read up on modal interchange, which is one of my new favorite concepts.

[timscarey]

I'd love to hear the details either here in the thread or in a PM. I would have naively thought that the parent scale for an inside choice mode in your system would have been either the major scale or the MM scale. But obviously you have something else in mind. And it is interesting that you still see the circle of fifths active. So please pass on whatever you have handy.

Sure, so basically the "parent scale" for a chord is the major scale that the chord's mode originates from (George Russell used lydian scales as parent scales, not sure why). examples...

Dm7 (if dorian) has a C parent scale
Dm7 (if aeolean) has an F parent scale

the parent scale is equivalent to the location on the circle of 5ths.

Here's where it gets a little different, although i think it makes total sense.

There are two ways to convert a Major parent scale into a MM scale.

#1 raise the root (primary)
#2 lower the third

number one tends to bother people but check it out...

Cmaj becomes Dmm if you raise the root, if you compare the chords from each scale you will find that the chord types remain the same with the exceptions of the "tonic chords" or "keynote" chords..

CMa7---- Dm7----Em7----FMa7----G7----Am7----Bm7(b5)
C#alt----Dm6----Em7----FMaj7(-5)-G7---A7------Bm7(b5)

It makes sense to me, as Melodic Minor really has no "tonic" chords, it's all a bit unsettled.

From this we can make a determination that a chord with a MM inside choice with a raised variable tone (higher than the diatonic alternative) will be originated from the parent scale that the MM comes from... for example

Dmin7(-5) Locrian +2 = Fmm.... the parent scale for Fmm is Eb major. So, A D locrian +2 chord has a parent scale of Eb major.




When you lower the 3rd of a major scale you get fewer options.

CMa7---- Dm7----Em7----FMa7----G7----Am7----Bm7(b5)
Cmin6----Dm7----EbMaj7--F7------G7---Am7(b5)--Bm7(b5)

The lowered tone yields only 3 useable alterations from the diatonic model... Dorian -2, mixo b6, and altered scale on a half-dim. in all cases the variable tone is lowered from the diatonic model, the cool thing is that the parent scale is that same as the above model, meaning....

Bm7(-5) altered scale comes from C parent
Bm7(-5) Locrian +2 also comes from C parent
Bm7(-5) Locrian you guessed it... C parent


Dominant chords are always 5 chords in their parent scale.

One of the final steps in this theory (for now) is to use the root movement of the parent scales from one chord to another to determine if the movement will be a resolution or non-resolution.

Sorry if this is overly wordy or seems completely irrelevant.

[jster]

Thanks so much Tim. I'm trying to work through this tonight. I'm a bit confused right at the outset though. I'm trying to understand how Locrian, one of your 2s, is a raised pitch away from any of the 1s. For example, I can get to B Locrian by lowering the 5 (F#) of B Phryigian. But I don't see how to get there by raising a tone. But maybe you don't mean going from one B chord to another B chord like that. So what am I missing? So what is B Phrygian one raised tone away from specifically?

Thanks in advance.

[timscarey]

Thanks so much Tim. I'm trying to work through this tonight. I'm a bit confused right at the outset though. I'm trying to understand how Locrian, one of your 2s, is a raised pitch away from any of the 1s. For example, I can get to B Locrian by lowering the 5 (F#) of B Phryigian. But I don't see how to get there by raising a tone. But maybe you don't mean going from one B chord to another B chord like that. So what am I missing? So what is B Phrygian one raised tone away from specifically?

Thanks in advance.

Oh, let me try and answer that. There is no option from #1 for a half diminished chord, a half diminished chord is inherently non-tonic. The diatonic option is locrian, the other two options are melodic minor. One having a raised, the other having a lowered pitch.

It's the same with min6 chords. There is no #1 or tonic scale for a min6 chord. The diatonic option for these is dorian, but MM and Dorian flat 2 are it's melodic minor options.

Only Major and Minor 7th chords will function as #1 or "tonic" in a modal progression because they are the only ones which imply either Ionian, Aeolean, or Phrygian (which can be tonic as well).

Does that clarify? if not, i'll try again. This all makes sense to me and I really hope to get more questions. I love this stuff.


Also, it's not that going from one "level" to another always involves raising a pitch. It is true that a mode in each level is one note different from a mode in another, but it's not always via raising a pitch. Sometimes it's lower, as in lowering the 3rd of the parent scale to get Dorian -2 for example.

[jster]

Sorry. I'm probably more confused now. When I first read it, I thought, oh, that should be easy to work through. But then I started doing it, and I realized I had no idea what it means for a level to be a raised tone away from another level. We don't even need to talk about MM because I am just trying to understand the relation between the first too levels. I have read all of what you wrote several times, but I still can't understand your initial foundation.

I consider (in the general world of jazz harmony) there to be 3 "levels" if you will, of harmonic function in modal harmony.... keep in mind, this is modal harmony, not tonal or blues.

1. Tonic Diatonic (Ionian Major-Aeolian Minor-Sometimes Phrygian minor)
2. Non-Tonic Diatonic (Dorian Minor-Lydian Major-Locrian Minor)
3. Melodic Minor (MM, Dorian -2, Lydian +5, Locrian +2)

you might notice that 2 differs from 1 by only one raised pitch, and that the same is true from 2 to 3, only 1 note different. I call these the Variable tones, I think reg calls them the CP?

Sorry to put to the side the other things you wrote and sorry to repeat the question without much rephrasing. But can you explain what you mean by this quote with respect to the first two levels? Everything here comes from the major scale. If we look at Locrian, which tone is raised? And from what was it raised?

Sorry if I'm being dense.

[timscarey]

Oh crap, sorry I just realized the word raised should have been left out of that initial quote, I should have just said "different" as in the case of locrian that does not apply. Sorry about that.

Anyway,

A chord who's inside choice is either Ionian, Aeolean, or Phrygian will be heard as a tonic in a modal situation (#1), where as a chord who's inside choice is Dorian, Lydian, or Locrian will be heard as a non-tonic chord (#2). A chord who's inside choice is a melodic minor scale will be heard as a melodic minor chord (#3).

For example, take the first 4 chords or Prince of darkness...

Cm7----Gm7----Bbm7----Gm7----

If you compare the variable tones from each chord you will arrive at the following inside choice scales.

Cm7 (A/Ab)
Gm7 (E/Eb)
Bbm7 (G/Gb)

the highlighted ones are the notes that are found in the adjacent chords.

the resultant inside choice scales would be

C dorian (non-tonic) #2
G aeolean or phrygian (Tonic) #1
Bb dorian (non-tonic) #2

When you play this progression, the G minor chord clearly emerges as the tonic chord. The reason is that it's inside choice scale is a tonic scale (#1)
the other two chords have a Dorian inside choice and thus are not being resolved too, but actually create tension in this modal situation.


The next chord is GbMaj7(-5) the options here are Lydian (#2) or Lydian+5 (#3)

compared to the surrounding chords the lydian+5 emerges as the inside choice, this chord will be heard as a melodic minor chord (#3) as it's inside choice is a melodic minor mode, this will be heard as a big step away from the tonic chord we where just on Gm7(#1) moving to Gbmaj(-5) (#3)

if we moved the other way with the Gb chord first it would be heard as a strong resolution (#3) moving to (#1)

hope you are not even more confused now.

Sorry, I was just playing through the tune and another good example came up, the resolution from the Ebm7 to the Gm7 at the very end. As you can hear, it is a very strong resolution. The reason is that when you compare the two chords for inside choice the Ebm7 is clearly a Dorian minor (non-tonic) and the Gm7 is implied Phrygian or Aeolean (tonic), when moving from non-tonic to tonic, the result will be a resolution.

[Bryan T]

I've had "Autumn Leaves" stuck in my thread since Jon started this thread.

[Reg]

Someone sent me this video... I made ??? don't remember, just playing through, but since we rally never actually covered the whole tune... here's a sample..

Reg

[Reg]

Hey Tim...
I have always heard Dor. as inside choice ... very tonic. What do you pull from on Vamp. G- ...Bb13, Eb-.

[Jazzpunk]

Reg,
You did a great job in that first vid (the one with the 'modal' analysis) of illustrating how moving beyond the basic 'chord tones + extensions' approach to 'functional' progressions can bring new life to an old standard.

Some nice ideas to work on there, thanks!

[Reg]

Thanks JP... Yea I think over the years I've covered the tune in a million ways... Tons of latin grooves with typical latin harmonies, Very blues like and even Sco. MM blues grooves... but then that happens with almost all tunes...Reg

[timscarey]

Hey Tim...
I have always heard Dor. as inside choice ... very tonic. What do you pull from on Vamp. G- ...Bb13, Eb-.

I agree with you completely, the natural 6 sounds better on a minor chord in almost every situation IMO. As for what I would pull from over these changes, tons of stuff...

Over the minor chords I might pull from any of the minor modes (aeolean, dorian, phrygian, MM, Dorian -2) I might rock a blues scale, draw from 4th or 5th stacks, the options are pretty endless as you know.

I would treat the Dom chord like any other dominant chord, I like to use diminished ideas generally, or draw from mixo +4, blues also works.

I might also ignore the Bb7 chord and just treat it as Gm7-Ebm7 and draw from my minor options.

"what to play" is not really the end result of the modal analysis in my opinion, it's "how are the chords functioning" as we can hear in this progression, when moving from the Ebm7 to the Gm7 the effect is one of resolution, regardless of what you play over it, the chords have that tendency on their own.

If you play the same thing, but replace the Gm7 with an Gbm7, you might agree that the feeling of resolution is less than with the Gm7. The Gbm7, feels like it is still moving while the Gm7 has the effect of completing the progression.

you may not agree, that's how I hear it, and that's one of the things this helps me with, finding those kinds of modal relationships between chords.

[jster]

For example, take the first 4 chords or Prince of darkness...

Cm7----Gm7----Bbm7----Gm7----

If you compare the variable tones from each chord you will arrive at the following inside choice scales.

Cm7 (A/Ab)
Gm7 (E/Eb)
Bbm7 (G/Gb)

the highlighted ones are the notes that are found in the adjacent chords.

the resultant inside choice scales would be

C dorian (non-tonic) #2
G aeolean or phrygian (Tonic) #1
Bb dorian (non-tonic) #2

I see how you got this. I am not sure why you didn't write the other tones? For a m7 chord you have 4 choices. Those 4 choices come from 4 possibilities from 2 variable tones. In the case of Cm7, D/Db and A/Ab. Why don't you mention the D/Db choice? I see why it is D, but not sure why it isn't worth mentioning?

[timscarey]

Nice,

Not sure why I didnt include the phrygian option, it doesn't change the resolutions. But, you get the idea yeah?

Since aeolean and phrygian are both tonic scales, the resolution will occur either way. I think often overlook the b2 as an option because its so dissonant.

[jster]

I worked through the fifth chord and saw that it works. Nice. Do you have a chart for the tune? I couldn't pull one up. Or can you jot down the chords?

I understand why the MM is at a tense level. But why are Dorian and especially Lydian at a tense level? I thought Lydian was supposed to be superior to Ionian because no avoid note. Without dominant chords around, isn't Lydian better?

(OK, I still have to work through your raising the root rather than lowering the third stuff.)

Thanks!