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Hi, guys Im just checking out a Foggy Day, How would you explain the Bbm6 in bar 12, my ears it resolves nicely to back the F major 7..it's annoying me because I'm sure there's a simple explanation that I'm missing.
The 4 bars Im talking about are, obviously I hear this all the time, but whats the explanation of it?
F Maj7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb Maj7 | Bm6 |
F maj7
Thanks
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08-27-2012 09:42 PM
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"Minor plagal cadence". Very common. (BTW, in your progression "Bm6" is a typo.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadence_(music)
In jazz, this often becomes what's known as the "backdoor progression" by inserting a bVII7 between the minor iv and the tonic. In this case it would be Bbm7-Eb7-Fmaj7.
Minor iv going to a tonic maj7 is very attractive, because three of the voices fall by a half-step. In this case:
Db > C
F > E
Bb > A
This move is preserved if Eb9 is used.
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Sorry if I'm being pedantic, but I don't think that's a cadence, JonR, though there is nothing wrong with your analysis otherwise (and I had heard the expression but didn't know that that was what 'backdoor progression' meant, thanks). A cadence is a closing, this doesn't close, it leads into the next phrase. The Wikipedia article you refer to says, "While cadences are usually classified by specific chord or melodic progressions, the use of such progressions does not necessarily constitute a cadence—there must be a sense of closure, as at the end of a phrase." I.e., yes, you have correctly identified that chord progression as being that of a minor plagal cadence, and if the repeated C in the melody in bar 13 (chord of F in the harmony) were an ending, it would be exactly what you say, but it isn't, it's a beginning, so no cadence. In fact, it's more of a turn-around - what's the proper musical term for that?
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I'd stick in the Eb9, as well, but I'm a backdoor guy.
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Fair enough. As I understand it, a cadence is a kind of "punctuation". It doesn't have to be a closing (an "imperfect cadence" is not a closing). The end of a phrase, yes, not necessarily the end of a sentence
Originally Posted by JohnRoss
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I definitely hear a sense of resolution back to the tonic, but I guess what you're saying is that the Bbm6 is the end of the phrase, which is not a "resolution". The following tonic has to be included if it's to be a proper "plagal cadence". Is that how you see it?
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Yeah, me too. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
And this guy...
(Something tells me he's not talking about quite the same thing...)
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Exactly. The I that follows in bar 13 is a new phrase (A in the melody, not C, duh of me), there's even a rest at the beginning of the bar, so it almost has to be a new phrase). That IV - iv chord progression (or IV - bviii9, if it's an Eb9) prepares the way for it, but doesn't itself constitute or end with a cadence. Originally Posted by JonR
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So it's not a cadence if it is not at the end of the piece or section?
I am not sure that makes the term very useful in theory then, since it can only describe the ending.
Jens
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Or the end of a phrase, as JonR says, but less often, cadences are, as he says, a kind of punctuation, but heavy punctuation, they are for big moments, sort of like a climax but at the end of something instead of in the middle. Most cadences* are V-I (perfect), with some (plagal) that are IV-I - there's debate about whether these count, but they're in the exams, and, whatever, most cadences end on I. So to keep the punctuation analogy, they are at minimum the equivalent of a full stop, and are more often more like the ends of paragraphs or chapters. Originally Posted by JensL
*I'll put this apart so that no-one has to read it who doesn't want to. The exceptions to the V-I cadence are, as JonR points out, the imperfect cadence, I-V, which is kind of the opposite of an ordinary cadence, stating that there is probably another phrase or section to follow, and the interrupted or deceptive cadence, which is a kind of trick, V-X, where X is any chord that isn't I, so deliberately leaving the listener disappointed (which doesn't apply here). Anyway, what we're talking about in this part of A Foggy Day is not a cadence, just a nice harmony, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Ok.
I would personally not tie it to the placement in the form, but see it more as a harmonic device of a progression leading to a tonic, since the form part is less relevant in Jazz as opposed to classical music where the harmony is often secondary to the form.
JensLast edited by JensL; 08-30-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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That isn't what 'cadence' means. I have no objection to anyone inventing terms, but why take a perfectly good word with a generally accepted meaning and try and make it mean something else? 'Cadence' does not mean 'chord progression leading to a tonic,' it's a chord progression 'moving to a harmonic close, point of rest, or sense of resolution.' You aren't disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the dictionary, which is obtuse. Or more probably, lazy, you haven't taken the trouble to look it up. Originally Posted by JensL
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You're right of course that is what a cadence means, I am not really disagreeing with you. I was just (however badly..) trying to point out that it is a bit confusing in a thread about harmony to say that the same progression is sometimes a cadence and sometimes not depending on where it is in the form of the piece.
Jens
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Sorry, thought you were, I beg your pardon. Originally Posted by JensL
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So if we have a I-iv-ii-V progression as in so many pop tunes, there is not a cadence because the I does not come at the end of the phrase?
Is melody relevant here? What if the melodic phrase stretches over and puts the punctuation on the I?
At first I thought you guys were talking about whether it comes at the end of a section, but rather the issue can turn on whether the I or the V comes at the end of a phrase? Have I got that right? If somehow those Foggy Day chords had been pushed back a bar, then it would have been a cadence?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying, so excuse me if I am. But I have been wondering about this whole issue of where the I comes when ending a section. There are plenty of tunes where the I appears at the end of a section and plenty of tunes where the V appears at the end, like Rhythm Changes.
Hopefully despite not fighting the dictionary, I'm not persisting in being obtuse!Last edited by jster; 08-30-2012 at 08:47 PM.
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Hi Paul
You're not, that was my point. In jazz it is not so practical to let the concept cadence be a for dependent description of the harmony, in my experience, not everybody uses it like that, but most never use it anyway. In classical music it makes much more sense since the music is much more revolving about how the form is constructed and treated.
Jens
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I think in this case the argument is that the minor iv is the end of the phrase. There is no type of cadence that fits that description. Originally Posted by jster
Cadences don't have to end on I.
"Authentic" and "plagal" cadences end on I;
"Half" cadences end on V;
"Deceptive" or "Interrupted" cadences begin on V but end on any other chord than I (typically vi, IV or ii). The ending in question could almost fit this one, but the minor iv is not preceded by V (so we are not expecting a resolution, so it can't be said anything is being "interrupted").
The question (perhaps) is does the move to minor iv feel like a "resolution" of some kind? Like a natural punctuation point? IMO, it makes you expect the following tonic, which is why I considered it a cadence. In a sense, the trick here is to make the resolution chord the beginning of the next phrase, so the "ending" overlaps with a new beginning.
But then, you could say the same of a "half cadence" - it ends on V, but normally a I would follow that, beginning the next phrase.
IOW, the melodic phrase shape has to affect it, as I understand it.
Yes, if the melody finished on the I (in the next bar), I guess you could properly call it a cadence. Originally Posted by jster
IMO, it would have been clearer as such. I don't it's that black and white. (Music rarely is... Originally Posted by jster
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Endings on both I and V are cadences. The question is: what is an "ending"? Originally Posted by jster
It has to be something we hear naturally as a breathing space in the music, where it reaches either a point of rest ("period"), or some other obvious punctuation (equivalent to a "comma" or "semi-colon").
IMO, there is such a sense at that point in this tune (and in many others). I just don't know if there's a proper term for it, if you regard the punctuation point as the minor iv (and not the following I). (It's so common there ought to be.)
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Damn, sorry. It was late. I meant to write: I-vi-ii-V. Arg. And I was imagining those four bars over and over. Hence the reference to pop songs. In this kind of case, is there or isn't there 'rest' at the I? I would have thought there was.
I've been writing little jingles and it dawned on me a few months ago that they divide into these two categories depending on whether the (usually just one repeating) section ends on a I chord, say like a blues, or ends on a V chord, like a do woop tune or Rhythm Changes. So I thought the punctuation had a variable place depending on where the junction was between the V and the I chord.
It seems to me that there are tensions between defining cadences as JonR just did with specific chords, defining them in terms of where phrases end, and defining them in terms of rest. Seems doubtful any lexicographer would wade in here.
I think Jens point about these notions being at home in classical music where form is central has to be right on. I know the thread was about Foggy Day and I appreciate the issues there, but I don't even understand how to apply the notion of cadence to a I-vi-ii-V doo wop style tune.
EDIT: I was miffed at my typo and so rushed to issue a correction before carefully reading all you wrote. But, Jon, I see that you have answered most of my concerns. So, don't feel obligated to spill too much more ink on this issue. After all, I think we recognize semantic matters are never all that interesting. But I am still interested in the non-semantic question of whether we hear a rest on the I of a doo wop tune.Last edited by jster; 08-31-2012 at 09:43 AM.
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Just received this response from stevel over on emusictheory:
Elided cadence. Cadence point is simultaneously the end of the first phrase and beginning of the second - they "overlap" (in that I chord after the iv).
If the iv is truly the cadence, it would have to be considered some type of half cadence.
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I suspect the term"elided cadence" would fit there too, as the V-I overlaps into the next phrase. Originally Posted by jster
OTOH, ii-V is itself a "half cadence" (as I understand it).
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This is called a borrowed chord. Borrowed chords are almost always used in a major chord progression, and borrowed from the parallel minor key, the exception to this is the "picardy third" major I chord used in the minor key, and borrowed from the parallel major key. In this case the song is primarily in F major and the Bm6 is being borrowed from the parallel key F minor. It's hard to see because there is so much modulation going on. Another term used for this is modal mixture, i.e. you are mixing the ionian and aeolian modes. This practice goes all the way back to the Baroque period. Other commonly borrowed chords, when in a major key: ii diminished, ii half-diminished 7, bVI, vii diminished 7. And yes, it is not a cadence. Contrary to what Jonr said, there would be no problem using the 6th on the chord since it occurs naturally in the key of F minor, which the chord is borrowed from. Originally Posted by crimzon
Last edited by jazzadellic; 09-02-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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I should have said, if this is how you're hearing it - resolving back to the Fmaj7 - then "minor plagal cadence" is definitely what it is. Originally Posted by crimzon
The disagreement is over the fact that the Bbm6 is the end of the melodic phrase - and that, in itself (disregarding the following move to F), is not a "cadence" (other than the "elided cadence" referred to above).
The chord itself is borrowed (from F minor) is jazzadelic says.
And (as I also said above), it moves well to Fmaj7 because of three half-step falls: ie, very strong voice-leading.
IOW, there are kind of 3 ways of looking at it, and they all work together.
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when you play Bbm6 with an F as the melody note...You get the exact chord that George Gershwin intended. I am over 80 years old and that's the way I Originally Posted by JonR
heard it since before I first played it.
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No doubt Originally Posted by Earl
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(Not quite on topic, but good to hear! I'm all for getting back to the composer's original intentions when possible. Eg, I get bored with all those jazz variations on Summertime. What chords did Gershwin actually write? That's where I want to to start from.)
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Well clearly that means ad a G (the 6th relative to Bflat) to a Bflat minor chord. When I see this I immediately think "G half diminished" a.k.a. as "G minor 7 flat 5" which of course works well with a C bass to complete your turn around or cadence.
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There are many chord progressions which have the alteration b6 (d flat in f) going to 5 (c in f) see if you can identify more of them.
The move 6-b6-5 is super common. In f that would include progressions like:
Bbmaj7 Bbm6 F (which we see in a foggy day)
Gm7 Bbm6 F
Be on the look out for these.
You can play IV IVm I (b flat minor - f) on almost any cadential chord progression that starts on a IV, ii or viio chord and ends up on I, vi or iii - it's one of my favourite moves on a ii V I and will give you a iim7 V7b9 Imaj7 sound overall. Listen to lester young, django, Charlie christian and Charlie Parker for many examples of this.
Caution - use b flat m7 with care in this context- This chord needs another flat, a flat, in the key of f, which may clash with the melody. Can sound good for soloing though.
Barry harris regards the flat 6 as so important he incorporates it into his eight note major scale as the basis for different harmonic movements.
Other people talk about the harmonic major, which is a major scale with a flat6, but to me the Barry harris system is a more sophisticated and flexible way of dealing with this type of progression.Last edited by christianm77; 11-15-2015 at 11:02 AM.
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