Reg's Thread... live at the speed of Jazz

**jster** · 12-12-2012, 05:15 PM

Damn, you replied before you got my rewrite. I keep editing after I post. Really bad habit. I looked and it didn't seem like you were online, so I thought I could get away with it. Sorry Reg, could you look at my rewritten version? In brief what is ii-V about it? The minor chord is a minmaj7. How can that be a ii chord?

**jster** · 12-12-2012, 05:19 PM

Is the ii in your ii-V template a iiminmaj7?

**Philco** · 12-12-2012, 07:26 PM

There is a simpler way to look at what Reg did. This is a good example of how to use melodic minor (which I learned a lot about from Reg's other vids).

Here is my simple summation.
In brief: Reg is playing a one chord (C6/9 or similar) and then a 5 chord (G13)
In his improvisation over these chords he pulls from a C major scale for the one chord and a G mixo for the 5 chord.

Some would say just play a C scale for the lot.....and you could.
But when the G13 comes along Reg does spell out the chord tones of a G7th chord. Note the sweep of the G shape from the 4th to second string and then Reg stretches the first finger across to the F on the first fret of the first string. There's your G7.

Ok this is BEFORE he starts altering the 5 chord. All in C major.

So now he introduces the altered 5 Chord. He raises the 5.

Things have now changed. We can now introduce the Melodic Minor scale over that altered G.

But which one?
There is a rule that almost always works.

1) If your altered dominant chord is static (it's not going to go back to the one.....like some rock and funk songs just stay on a 7#9 chord for 8 bars) then you play the Melodic Minor a 5th above the root of that chord.

2) If your altered dominant chord is going back to the one.....as in Reg's case, the G alt is going back to the C then you play the Melodic Minor one semitone above.

Reg is playing almost exclusively from Ab Melodic Minor. There are a couple of passing notes that jazz players like to use in the MM scale and Reg uses those as well (mainly on the 1st string in this example)

All of Reg's licks , including his fave arpeggios are strictly Ab melodic Minor in this example.

The confusion arises when modes of the MM start getting referred to.
Don't be confused. It's just Ab MM.
You can start talking about Lydian b7 and "The Altered Scale" and the "Super Locrian Scale". (The Altered Scale and the Super Locrian scale are the same.....just different names for the same thing......confusing yes?) They are simply modes of a Melodic Minor Scale.
In other words playing the Melodic Minor Scale starting on different notes or degrees of that scale.

Reg only plays the Ab Melodic Minor in that example.

Second point of confusion:

If you really know your MM scale back to front, then you know all the chords that are built from it.
Reg says something like " I can even pull from other subs of the MM scale" and then plays an Eb7#9.
So your thinking "what... where did that come from?"
Well that chord is part of the Ab MM scale. You can pull from any chord of that scale and you will get a different flavour.

Every time Reg does that little sweep around the 4th fret it's a little Melodic Minor box that sits comfortably under the hand.
Then you will see him play what seems to be the same lick up on the 7th fret.
It's not the same lick. It's a Cmaj7 arp because he's playing over a C chord.
Then he comes back down to the 4th fret and appears to play a Abmaj7th arp but it's not.
Listen carefully, one note is different. Instead of a C on the 3rd string he plays a B. You got it..... he's playing an arpeggio based on Ab MM.

The lick is

--------------------3----6---------------------
---------------4------------------------------
-----------4----------------------------------
---3---6 ---------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

Bend the 2nd finger to get the 3rd and 2nd string.
If you look at that shape on the board you can see a G altered chord but in fact it's notes from the AbMM scale.

Reg, let me know if I've mis represented what you were trying to say.

**jster** · 12-12-2012, 07:35 PM

Are you talking about Alone Together? The first two bars in the Real Book are |D- |E-7b5 A7b9| and Reg confirms he is playing the tune in D minor. I'm trying to understand the template that Reg is laying over those two bars. Are we talking about the same thing? Are we in the same key? I'm not confused by the names of the modes. Those I know. I'm just trying to understand how we start with a tune in D minor and then do modal interchange on the D minor to get D melodic minor and then start regarding that tonic as a ii chord.

**Philco** · 12-12-2012, 07:38 PM

Sorry I should have been specific. I was referring to this vid about the Altered scale.

**jster** · 12-12-2012, 07:44 PM

Were you talking to me?

**Philco** · 12-12-2012, 07:49 PM

Yes and anyone else who is confused about my video specific post.
It's funny, I went through that vid last night and just assumed everyone was talking about the same one.

Of course there are a number of Vids in this thread.
Apologies for the confusion.

**jster** · 12-12-2012, 08:05 PM

No problem. OK, we'll talk about that video. Reg says "sub of the sub" alot. I have never heard anybody else say that. He says it in that video. What does he mean by that? Is that what you are referring to when you mention the Eb chord?

That's an interesting video. I remember when he posted that. It was right after he dyed his hair blue and put it in ponytails.

**ColinO** · 12-12-2012, 08:30 PM

"sub of sub"

I actually heard Joe Pass say that a lot when he was describing his approach to chord substitutions on some video I saw once. I think he was saying that (for example) a Db7 is a pretty common sub for G7 and a E7 and Bb7 are pretty common subs for Db7 so you can also sub E7 or Bb7 for G7 (or something like that).

Anyway, I don't think Reg is far out there when he talks about subs of subs.

**Philco** · 12-12-2012, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by jster

No problem. OK, we'll talk about that video. Reg says "sub of the sub" alot. I have never heard anybody else say that. He says it in that video. What does he mean by that? Is that what you are referring to when you mention the Eb chord?

That's an interesting video. I remember when he posted that. It was right after he dyed his hair blue and put it in ponytails.

Yes in that video I think Reg was referring to the Eb7#9 as a sub of a sub.

**jster** · 12-12-2012, 08:40 PM

No, I don't think he is far out. But he says it in that video that you were explaining at the 0.47 mark. I don't think he is bringing in a third dominant chord. He seems to mention it as a way of adding extensions to the V chord. If that is correct, can you have the sub of the sub of the sub?

**jster** · 12-12-2012, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Philco

Yes in that video I think Reg was referring to the Eb7#9 as a sub of a sub.

Oh wow. OK, so how does that work again? We have tritone substitution. What is this other kind of substitution?

**Philco** · 12-12-2012, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by jster

Oh wow. OK, so how does that work again? We have tritone substitution. What is this other kind of substitution?

When the G altered chord was used as a sub it invoked the use of the Ab Melodic Minor Scale.
The Eb7#9 is built off the 5th degree of the Ab MM scale referred to as Mixolydian b6

In fact the actual chord built off the 4th degree is a Eb7b13

So the first sub was G altered (instead of G13)
Then he sub'd the G altered for a Db7#11 (the chord built off the 4th mode of AbMM or the Lydian b7 mode)....so there's your sub of the sub.
Then he says I could pull more from the MM scale and plays the Eb7#9 (although the #9 is not in the scale) but then he explains about the notes in the shape and identifies the b13 (or b6) so there is your 5th mode of the MM scale. The Mixolydian b6.

I guess you could say that we then have the sub of the sub of the sub.
Perhaps a bit of colourful language. He is really talking about degrees of the MM scale.

**jster** · 12-13-2012, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Philco

In fact the actual chord built off the 4th degree is a Eb7b13

Typo? I think you meant 5th degree.

**Philco** · 12-13-2012, 07:10 AM

Yeah...typo.

Here is a chart worth keeping with the modes listed (even though it is discussing the lydian dominant)

The Lydian Dominant Mode

**jster** · 12-13-2012, 07:33 AM

"Then he sub'd the G altered for a Db7#11 (the chord built off the 4th mode of AbMM or the Lydian b7 mode)....so there's your sub of the sub"

Thanks so much. This is the thing that always confused me the most. I always thought the Db chord would be the first sub. It usually is just the "tritone sub", not some second sub. But I guess Reg and Joe Pass talk differently. I thought it was some crazy process of flipping back and forth somehow adding extensions. #(@*$&#@(^ )(*)&%^)(& Really you pros gotta call a conference and get your nomenclature straight because it is a joke. You got four different names for every mode. And despite having four names you even got the modes wrong: the ancient Dorians didn't play today's Dorian. And you got different names for notes depending on what country you are in. You got different symbols for chords. You got your quarter notes and your crotchets. In any other field they would call a conference and set standards. I think you are just trying to keep it all a secret! And to think it almost worked! I'm onto you now. Sub of a sub. (*&)^&^%*&%$

**Vladan** · 12-13-2012, 07:52 AM

I agree about "secret" part (no comment for the rest).

Lot's of it's "Too much ado about nothing", but that's to blame on us ignorants. Pros, they know what they do, and have this highly codefied language to communicate that "what". They do not need to explain "how" and "why", because they already know that.
When ignorant jumps in, they won't switch to his mode, to reveal the secret, but will provide tools he to break in on his own, and start to communicate.

One can always opt not to play the game, so we get "what do you think of when you play...?" questions.

**jster** · 12-13-2012, 08:19 AM

Sure, let's play blame the victim. @#(*$&@#($*

**Vladan** · 12-13-2012, 08:28 AM

who's the victim? I can't completely follow your thought.

**Philco** · 12-13-2012, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Vladan

I agree about "secret" part (no comment for the rest).

Lot's of it's "Too much ado about nothing", but that's to blame on us ignorants. Pros, they know what they do, and have this highly codefied language to communicate that "what". They do not need to explain "how" and "why", because they already know that.
When ignorant jumps in, they won't switch to his mode, to reveal the secret, but will provide tools he to break in on his own, and start to communicate.

One can always opt not to play the game, so we get "what do you think of when you play...?" questions.

A lot of it IS a much ado about nothing.

I guess everyone's journey is different and people will stumble across certain info that will clear things up for them or they.......won't.

In my own case I have been on a quest to simply find out what scale to play over certain chords to get a certain BeBop sound that I love.
I'd say since I started playing again almost 3 years ago......it has taken me up until now to decode a lot of info available on the net and in books and I think I might be at a point where I know some of the important academic stuff that I can hopefully translate into music.

But there is so much BS around that just confuses.
So many people trying to sell books.
So many people with a new great system.
So many players who really DO know all the secrets but actually sound boring.
And so many great players who seem to be playing instinctively.......without much academic learning at all.

It's mighty confusing.
But great fun

**jster** · 12-13-2012, 08:34 AM

So Reg, I still want to know about the ii chord. Is it a minmaj7? If so, then what relationships is it involved in that it wouldn't be involved in if we thought of it as a i chord?

Thanks.

**Vladan** · 12-13-2012, 08:57 AM

I think he already answered:

REG said: ... My relationship is using any Min. or Dom. chord to either be the II or the V of a II V... I'm dropping a II V template over any Min. or Dom chord and creating II Vs... That is the concept and organizing system...

So, it's his way of doing things. Do we really need more?

**jster** · 12-13-2012, 08:59 AM

So is the ii chord a minmaj7? Yes or no?

**ColinO** · 12-13-2012, 09:54 AM

Isn't he just saying that he's treating the i IV like a ii V because MM gives you that option? And by treating it that way, it creates more possibilities for him when comping and improvising. I don't want to speak for Reg, but that looked like the basic point to me. Are you saying that he shouldn't be thinking of it as a ii chord if it's minmaj7?

**Vladan** · 12-13-2012, 10:05 AM

I don't know. And frankly, am not interested that much. As far as I know, once you'vegot your V7(alt, or not), before it you can add just about anything ii, or II.

Anyway, I cheked that video, ther's someone playing something, than moving a finger half step lower, to play something else, while we hear recording of clear human voice saying "... I'll probaly keep it dorian ...", that first chord.

Is that an answer?

jster, are you trying this on guitar, or you're on your favourite musician's instrument?