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OK. I admit it. I don't like altered chord theory. The reason I don't is because the term "altered" could mean too many things, such as chords with b5,#5, #9, b9, and any combination of these.
I am comfortable with non-altered chords because I know, for instance, a major seventh chord will have 1, 3, 5, 7, and any of many combinations of those notes.
So I guess my question is, if I refer to a chord as being altered, is there any way to know I need to use a #5 or a b9? Or could it be one never that you just don't call a chord "altered" - you call it by its name, for instance C7#9 and altered is just the name of the family of chords using the #5, b5, #9, b9?
Any input will be appreciated. You folks were a big help with Melodic Minor and have me well on my way.
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06-05-2012 09:26 PM
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Guess what...
You probably know what I'm going to say. We're going to cover them in the Study Group of Joe Elliott's book - Chapter 16. That will be a bit down the road, but looking ahead he has us using the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale (aka the altered scale).
I think the b5, #5, b9 and #9 are all fair game for an Altered chord and they are all part of the altered scale. After all most of the time an altered chord is about tension so there is a lot you can do with them. It's almost as though there aren't any wrong notes.
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Ha. Ha. Ha.
Fep, you are starting to break me down. I am trying to take this thing a little slower but... OK, tomorrow I will check out that thread since I am away from home and have the time. Thanks
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Altered is just an adjective in chordal theory to describe raising or lowering anything not the root, 3rd, and 7th of (usually) a dominant quality chord.
There are many combinations of those alterations. Some "altered" chords just have one, others have a couple, and few are all-out "ALT".
There is no exact way to know from a given chord symbol just how many will sound the best or what the other players will play/outline. Sometimes it's logic, sometimes it's knowing who you are playing with and how they think.
I am pretty OCD about how we tackle them in my band Moondrool, for example. No "negotiating" allowed, for the "color" across instruments is part of the composition and the pianist, bassist, and I like love the results. That is not common practice in blowing-session jazz though.
In CST, some scales "produce" altered dominant chords. Let look at themain ones...
Let's call "Mixolydian-built" chords "unaltered dominants". These are some common ones:
(Dominant) Seventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th
(Dominant) Ninth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th 9th
(Dominant) Thirteenth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th 9th 13th
(Dominant) Seventh Suspended Fourth = 1st 4th 5th b7th
(Dominant) Ninth Suspended Fourth = 1st 4th 5th b7th 9th
(Dominant) Thirteenth Suspended Fourth = 1st 4th 5th b7th 9th 13th
Then we can look at Lydian Dominant (MM) which is like Mixolydian but the P4 is raised and used as a #11. Common chords are:
(Dominant) Seventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th
(Dominant) Seventh Added Augmented Eleventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th #11th
(Dominant) Ninth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th 9th
(Dominant) Augmented Eleventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th 9th #11th
(Dominant) Thirteenth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th 9th 13th
(Dominant) Thirteenth Augmented Eleventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th 9th #11th 13th
Then for another more "minor" cadence type altered dominant chord you have Phrygian Dominant (HM) and/or Spanish Phrygian chords. Also a good way to derive augmented triads and diminished tetrads via omitting some basic tones.
“Augmented Triad” = 1st 3rd b6th (aka #5 or b13- note that the P5 actually sounds really good played over this chord)
“Diminished Seventh Tetrad” (1st) 3rd 5th b7th b9th (any inversion is a "diminished chord" once the root has been omitted)
(Dominant) Seventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th
(Dominant) Seventh “Augmented Fifth”= 1st 3rd b6th b7th
(Dominant) Seventh Suspended Fourth = 1st 4th 5th b7th
(Dominant) Seventh Flat Ninth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th b9th
(Dominant) Seventh Flat Ninth Suspended Fourth = 1st 4th 5th b7th b9th
(Dominant) Seventh Sharp Ninth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th #9th (The #9th is the minor 3rd from Phrygian reintegrated into the chord-scale via Spanish Phrygian- Usually voiced higher than the Major 3rd.)
(Dominant) Seventh Flat Thirteenth = 1st 3rd (5th) b7th b13th
(Dominant) Seventh Flat Ninth Flat Thirteenth = 1st 3rd (5th) b7th b9th b13th
(Dominant) Seventh Sharp Ninth Flat Thirteenth = 1st 3rd (5th) b7th #9th b13th
Now Super Locrian aka "The Altered Scale" (MM) the one with everything and the kitchen sink altered. When some people say "altered" or "ALT" they mean this chord-scale and no other. The scale-degree/chord-tones are:
1st b2nd b3rd 3rd* b5 b6th b7th
(b9th #9th #11th b13th)
*The Major 3rd is actually the 4th scale degree! A b4th if you will.
Mixolydian b13 is another Melodic Minor mode, but not too popular in jazz.
It can make these chords. Notice the mix of the natural 9th with b13th:
“Augmented Triad” = 1st 3rd b6th (again, aka #5 or b13- and the P5 is still a "good" tone to play over the chord)
(Dominant) Seventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th
(Dominant) Seventh Suspended Fourth = 1st 4th 5th b7th
(Dominant) Ninth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th 9th
(Dominant) Ninth Suspended Fourth = 1st 4th 5th b7th 9th
(Dominant) Seventh Flat Thirteenth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th b13th
(Dominant) Ninth Flat Thirteenth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th 9th b13th
The Dominant Diminished (Octatonic Scale) has some very jazzy altered dominants that have natural 13ths and altered 9ths. Also a sweet #11. These are common chords:
“Diminished Seventh Tetrad” (1st) 3rd 5th b7th b9th (see Phrygian Dominant above for more on "diminished chords". I'd say PD is a more "inside choice" for functional diminished chords.
(Dominant) Seventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th
(Dominant) Seventh Flat Ninth= 1st 3rd 5th b7th b9th
(Dominant) Seventh Sharp Ninth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th #9
(Dominant) Seventh Flat Ninth Augmented Eleventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th b9th #11
(Dominant) Seventh Sharp Ninth Augmented Eleventh = 1st 3rd 5th b7th #9th #11
(Dominant) Thirteenth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th (b9 #9) 13th
(Dominant) Thirteenth Flat Ninth= 1st 3rd 5th b7th b9 13th
(Dominant) Thirteenth Sharp Ninth = 1st 3rd 5th b7th #9 13th
(Dominant) Thirteenth Augmented Eleventh= 1st 3rd 5th b7th (b9 #9) #11 13th
And we can't forget the old Whole-Tone Scale; it does pop up in jazz now and again. It can make augmented triads, and dominant 7th chords with natural 9ths, augmented 5ths, and augmented 11ths. Note the lack of a P5 makes it unstable and "impressionistic" a la Debussy at times.
Most of these are great for V7 I or V7 i cadences. Lydian Dominant, Dom. Dim., and WT are great for Tritone substitutions because they all have #11's and P5's that invert into logical chords in themselves. For example, E ALT and Bb7#11 both resolve to Am very well and contain the same notes.
Just my CST views here- there are many other paths...
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the simplest description of an "altered" dominant chord that i have seen is "a dominant seventh in which neither the 5th nor the 9th appears unaltered."
so an altered dominant doesn't have to include both altered 5ths and altered 9ths and may be played with neither, such as:
F
B
G
on the other hand. i know guys who don't like the term used in a chord symbol (such as G7alt) because they think it's lazy. i don't mind it myself
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Well, that's all it means
Originally Posted by AlsoRan
. Root-3rd-7th (of a dom7) plus any combination of altered 5th and 9th.
IOW - as dogbite says - there is no perfect 5th or major 9th. You don't have to include any of those alterations, but don't include a P5 or straight 9. (Actually a P5 can sometimes be compatible, but let's not go there yet...)
The answer is "voice-leading". Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Like you, I was never really comfortable with altered chords (still less the altered scale) until I realised it was all about resolving via half steps on to the next chord.
What the altered scale does is provide the maximum number of half-step moves (up or down) on to chord tones or consonant extensions on the following tonic, while still maintaining the basic functional tones on the dominant (1-3-7). ("Consonant extensions" on the tonic mean maj6, maj7, or maj9, on either a major or minor tonic. It's not common to resolve to the maj7, but 1-3-5-6-9 would be common targets.)
So you choose your alterations on your 7alt chord depending on how you're about to play your tonic. Here's the possible half-step moves from a C7alt to an Fm(6/9) chord:
Db > C or D
D#/Eb > D or (less likely) E
E > F
F#/Gb > F or G
G#/Ab > G
Of course you miss the G>Ab from an unaltered C7 to Fm.
OTOH, if moving to F major, you have an extra half-step, the classic Bb>A of course.
Yes. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
It's important to realise, however, when a "7#9" chord is not an altered dominant. An altered chord is always a V chord. (Well OK, there may be exceptions, but this is one of the more reliable rules in jazz...)
IOW, for C7#9 to be an altered chord (ie with no G, but either a Gb or G#) it would be clearly V in key of F minor.
When it's not an altered chord is when it's a tonic in a blues - eg as it is in Kenny Burrell's "Chitlins Con Carne" - ie the chord-type that would later be dubbed (by those less knowledgeable about jazz) the "Hendrix chord".
This chord would have a P5, and would take some kind of blues scale, not the altered scale.
There's still a little overlap. In key of F minor, you could still play a C7#9 with a G in it (as long as no one else was playing an altered 5th...)
And of course in key of C, there is a Gb in C blues scale - but then there's also a G, which is the chord tone on the tonic.
The other thing to look out for it is "7b9", which is usually shorthand for the HW dim scale. IOW, "C7b9" (almost always V in F minor) could fit the C altered scale, but is more likely implying C HW dim, which does have a perfect 5th: C Db D# E F# G A Bb. (The chord is basically Edim7 - the vii chord in F minor - with a C bass.)
The bottom half of that scale is the same as C altered, but the top half is significantly different. (It offers you two additional half-step moves: from G or A to Ab.)
Some contexts may allow either HW dim or altered, others may suggest one or the other. But the idea of voice-leading - of playing shapes which resolve neatly from one to the next - is usually the best tip.
It may also help (or if your head's already exploding it may not....
) to know that the tritone sub for an altered dominant is a lydian dominant.
Eg, to resolve to Fm, you can use either C7alt or Gb7#11. It's the same scale in each case (a mode of Db melodic minor, if you know your melodic minors). The only real difference between C7alt and Gb7#11 (Gb9#11, Gb13#11) is the bass note. If you play rootless shapes, then the shapes are identical. Don't know what shape to choose for a C7alt? Any Gb7 shape (unaltered) will probably do.Last edited by JonR; 06-06-2012 at 06:20 AM.
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This really is a great forum.
I've had so many mysteries solved for me.
I actually can follow everything that JonR just explained and see it on the fretboard in my head. A year ago it was all a complex tangle.
There really are some generous people around here.
I hope to be able to contribute something back to this forum one day.
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Thanks JonR, that's a tremendously useful answer.
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Jon,
Just want to add the idea of common tones linking V - I as well.
Your example might also include:
G#/Ab > Ab
If you are less specific about the nature of the Fm(6/9)
Fm7
D#/Eb > Eb
FmMa7
E > E
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Yes, right - I did mention a maj7, and was going with the convention of a tonic minor harmonised from melodic minor (not dorian or aeolian). Originally Posted by bako
It's only a convention of course, a "common practice". If a tonic minor is labelled "Fm7" then of course it doesn't have a maj7!
But if it's labelled merely "Fm" (or Fm6) then melodic minor is usually the safest bet. The maj7 would not have to be present as an extension of course, but would be part of the scale.
Of course you're right about common tones - I was kind of taking those for granted, but it's definitely worth pointing them out; thanks!
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The full R 3 b5 7 tritone substitution is the logic behind altered dom7 chords. Understand the basic math involved and a magic door opens. It's the simplest way of seeing the big picture, there's a natural symmetry to it.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 06-06-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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A candy kane in everybody's sock this Christmas!
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a simple start to go along with the definition i supplied earlier:
G7
G (1)
F (b7)
B (3)
G (1)
G7b9
Ab (b9)
F (b7)
B (3)
G (1)
G7#9
Bb (#9)
F (b7)
B (3)
G (1)
D7(9) not included because the ninth appears unaltered
G7b5
Db (b5)
B (3)
F (b7)
G (1)
G7#5
Eb (#5)
B (3)
F (b7)
G (1)
all of the above may be played when G7(alt) is called for. the ninth may be placed above the fifth:
G+7b9
Ab (b9)
Eb (#5)
B (3)
F (b7)
G (1)
and the fifth may be placed above the ninth:
G+7b9
Eb (#5)
Ab (b9)
F (b7)
B (3)
G (1)
and don't forget that you can leave those low notes out at least once in a while, as roots are often unnecessary and cumbersome.
here's a great quartal stack:
G7(alt)
Db (b5)
Ab (b9)
Eb (#5)
Bb (#9)
F (b7)
fun, fun, fun
Last edited by dogbite; 06-06-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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db: Why are you spelling the #9 as b3? (Welcome! It's cool to see your perspective on the forum.) Originally Posted by dogbite
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You should learn to see them as the same thing...they are enharmonic to each other. Some people prefer one way, others prefer the other way. Some, like myself, say it both ways depending on the phase of the moon, or the current price of pork bellies. Originally Posted by whatswisdom
Same thing with #11/#4/b5, #5/b13 (although on this one I'll probably get the Jazz Police after me)
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very often the #5 is the b3 of a minor key: Originally Posted by whatswisdom
Dm7b5 G7(#5) Cm9 Cm6/9
--------------------
-F-----Eb----D-----D
-C-----B-----Bb----A
-Ab----F-----Eb----Eb
-D-----------C-----C
-------G------------
so i got used to the idea, as fatjeff suggests, of freely using enharmonic notation. as such, the G+7 (G7#5) should be written as "G7(b13)" but it usually isn't...
so in this context the Eb makes more sense
and thanks for the welcome!Last edited by dogbite; 06-06-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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I agree about #9/b3 - IMO the only reason it's called "#9" is the principle that you shouldn't have two of one note in a chord (or scale) if you can avoid it. So if there's an E in the chord/scale, you can't have an Eb, it has to be D# (even when - as is often the case - we're talking a C7 in key of F minor, where Eb makes a lot more sense than D#). Originally Posted by FatJeff
However, I do remember seeing - many years ago - at least one published songsheet with a "7b10" chord in it, so these conventions do change....
#11/b5 is a different matter though. "#11" implies a P5 in the scale, and helps distinguish lydian dominant chords from altered or wholetone.
I'd also say the same about lydian chords - they ought to be "maj7#11" or "maj7#4", not "maj7b5", whether or not there's a P5 in the chord - although I know some aren't bothered. (There is no common scale with both a maj7 and a b5, so lydian is really the obvious assumption if we see such a chord.)
"b13", likewise, ought to imply inclusion of a P5 in the scale, but is less of an issue, simply because such an extension is so rare - it would be an avoid note if the 5th was in the chord (unless voiced below the 5th).
It could occur in 5th mode of harmonic or melodic minor, but minor key V chords tend to emply altered scale partly to avoid the P5/b13 clash. (Still, as dogbite says, "b13" usually makes more sense in terms of the local key, even if there is no P5 in the chord.)
I'd be interested, btw, to know if anyone has ever seen a "9b13" chord (implying 5th mode melodic minor), and - if so - how one might voice it.Last edited by JonR; 06-06-2012 at 11:10 PM.
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As long as we are talking enharmonic choice and altered chords/scale, does anyone write the major 3rd in the chord as a diminished fourth, since that is the actual note in the altered scale?
C alt scale: C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C
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i've never seen it in a chord symbol. this is exactly why the #4 vs b5 discussion loses me: in terms of the altered dominant scale, it's a half diminished (m7b5) scale! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
in other words, once an enharmonic substitution is in play, such as b4 = 3, all bets are off, since i don't know whether you're going for seven-tone altered, eight-tone diminished (in which case one scale step appears twice) or wholetone, in which case one step is missing.
although i perfectly understand that "#4" or "#11" implies that a natural 5 may be present and "b5" implies not, nobody writes it correctly (except for jonr anyway...
[hey jon, i saw a 7-10 once also. i minded my manners and didn't interrupt the rehearsal!]
to me, it appears to be a case of trying to justify a twelve-tone chromatic scale using seven-tone conventions; therefore, since nobody is advocating that what i normally play as E7(#9) is actually a quartal stack from F melodic minor:
b3 (G)
b7 (D)
b4 (Ab)
1 (E)
i am totally going to let somebody else finish this one
enharmonically yours,Last edited by dogbite; 06-07-2012 at 02:34 AM.
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Well, it is the "actual" note if either (a) you think of it as the 7th mode of Db melodic minor, or (b) you can't stand the idea of two versions of the same note Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
.
But "7th mode of melodic minor" is only a method of derivation for the altered scale, for those who know their melodic minor scales intimately. I've always found it a slightly off-putting association. That melodic minor scale has nothing to do with the context of the altered chord.
IMO the best way of seeing C altered IS with an E natural - that's the chord tone after all! The real "actual note". (The chord rules, not the scale.)
We can then think of the Eb as D# if we wish, but the truth is it's either a #9 or a b3, even though there is also a b9 and M3 in the scale.
IOW, the altered scale is 1-3-b7, plus b2, #2(b3), b5(#4) and #5(b6). That's how it works (extra tensions and half-step moves to the tonic). The resemblance to a mode of melodic minor is coincidental.
Whether we call the Gb "F#" or the Ab "G#" is optional, IMO. Either one might make sense in certain contexts. Eg, classical minds would prefer "F#" if the note was resolving up to G, and "Gb" if it was resolving down to F.
Of course, if we really are in a situation where we have the vii chord in a minor key, then 7th mode melodic minor might genuinely be an option - a "half-dim" (m7b5) scale as dogbite says.
IOW, invoking the Db melodic minor scale would make sense if we were in the key of Db minor. (But then we'd probably call the key C# minor in that case - and we'd have a B# to contend with, not an Fb.)
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sure. rootless Bb13#11 (4th mode). Originally Posted by dogbite
....nobody is advocating that what i normally play as E7(#9) is actually a quartal stack from F melodic minor:
b3 (G)
b7 (D)
b4 (Ab)
1 (E)
i am totally going to let somebody else finish this one
enharmonically yours,
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In terms of the degree of the melodic minor scale it resembles, yes (see above); not in terms of the altered dominant scale. Originally Posted by dogbite
Yes (I think)... Originally Posted by dogbite
Most people write it correctly in my experience. Originally Posted by dogbite
I see "maj7#11" much more often than "maj7b5". (I have seen the latter sometimes, but it doesn't bother me too much.)
With lydian dominant chords, I don't think I've ever seen them written as 7b5 rather than 7#11. Or maybe I've seen 7b5s and just assumed they were wholetone or altered chords..... (but I think I'd know a chord functioning as lydian dominant when i saw one.)
If you write a lydian dominant chord as 7b5, you should be prepared to hear a wholetone or altered scale played on it... (by anyone who doesn't see it in context for what it is).
Likewise, I would be surprised if anyone wrote a wholetone chord with a "#11". Anyone who really wants wholetone ought to write "9b5" or "9#5", the least ambiguous symbols.
When it comes to altered chords, it's more flexible, and personally I'm fine with "7#11b13" or whatever (that would be both altered 5ths, and "7b5#5" would just look silly... and still might imply wholetone).
I always thought that was the more sensible symbol for the "Hendrix chord" Originally Posted by dogbite
OK Originally Posted by dogbite
to me, it appears to be a case of trying to justify a twelve-tone chromatic scale using seven-tone conventions; therefore, since nobody is advocating that what i normally play as E7(#9) is actually a quartal stack from F melodic minor:
b3 (G)
b7 (D)
b4 (Ab)
1 (E)
i am totally going to let somebody else finish this one...
Why call the G# "Ab"? It makes no sense in relation to the chord. You have a classic voicing for an E7#9, but it's root-3rd-7th, with one alteration on top. The second note up is the major 3rd of the chord, not a diminished 4th!
If we were going to get really strict here (calling the Classical Police, not those lazy Jazz Police), if you call the top note "#9", it should really be written "Fx"; otherwise, if you're calling it G, the chord symbol ought to be "E7b10".
But I'm with the Jazz Police here
, and calling it both "#9" and "G" is fine in my rule book
(BTW, does anyone else get annoyed that we're only allowed 4 images per post here? Seems like the Jazz Police overstepping their mark...)
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Ah-ha! Originally Posted by randalljazz
sure. rootless Bb13#11 (4th mode). (correct enharmonics too
)
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It makes you wonder why the OP thinks altered can mean too many things. It's so simple that even Einstein could figure it out in a few years.
If a guitar only had one string, it would force guitarists to think like other jazz musicians.
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Let's take this out back behind the bar, Gumbo! Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Just kidding.
I just was confused by the use of the altered scale, altered chords, and when to use certain tensions, for example a flat five versus a sharp nine.
Now, I have a very good handle on things and will go back and read the Jazz book that had left me a little confused. This was probably two years ago that I had read the lesson. I just was too new to Jazz theory to understand it.
Now I can approach the section on altered chords with an understanding of the big picture.
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