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Following up this thread, I wanted to add that I just discovered Jody Fisher's Jazz Guitar series, specifically the book called Intermediate Jazz Guitar, has over 20 pages dedicated to altered chord theory along with examples.
I have not looked at these books in two years and I am now finding I have grown enough to be able to appreciate and utilize them.
I stil don't like the examples on the CDs much but when I play them with a little swing and articulation, they sound better to my ears.
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06-15-2012 04:29 PM
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The following is probably massively naive, but I saw it somewhere and wondered what people's views were. The idea was that dom7 chords can be put into two general categories:
1. V7s or tritone subs for V7s, which resolve to the tonic. G7 -> C or Db7 -> C (presumably, same for resolutions to Cm).
2. Dom7s that don't have this function, e.g. those that resolve up/down a whole tone etc.
A standard expectation would be that Type 1 would normally be altered; Type 2 would not, but might be voiced as Lydian Dominant (7#11).
Like I said, this seems too simplistic, but does it (ahem) strike a chord?
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"standard" is plain V7 resolve to major, down a 5th; 'altered' (b9b13, etc) resolves to minor, down a 5th; 7#11 is usual for bVII > I or i and for bII > I or i.
however split 9ths are commonly found in all situations, and altered 5ths (by whatever name) are freely sprinkled in, according to player's taste.
ymmv
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And here I was thinking simplistically. I thought there were primarily just two types, non-functioning and functioning V7s.
Originally Posted by randalljazz
randalljazz, you have just complicated my already complicated life - but thanks for identifying yet another musical tenet.
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Heh... absolutely. I guess I may just have to accept that there really aren't any reliable rules for this one, just guidelines and good ears. But what you said is very helpful. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Last edited by Rich Cochrane; 06-25-2012 at 04:32 AM.
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Primarily, there are. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Both types get messed around with sometimes, that's the thing.
Normally, a functioning V7 is the one that gets altered (altered 5ths and 9ths), especially in minor keys.
Normally, a non-functioning dom7 (bII or bVII typically) is the one that's lydian dominant.
But them jazz musicians do like to mess around with the rules...
Oh yes, and there are blues dom7s too, anyone mention them yet? I7 and IV7 are "non-functioning", but (usually) not lydian dominant either. But don't let any jazz musicians get their hands on them....
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This is would I focused in on. Both you and randalljazz made a point of mentioning this. Originally Posted by JonR
Primarily, there are.
Normally, a functioning V7 is the one that gets altered (altered 5ths and 9ths), especially in minor keys.
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[QUOTE=Rich Cochrane;236079]Heh... absolutely. I guess I may just have to accept that there really aren't any reliable rules for this one, ]
There are no rules in jazz,but there are things that happen a lot.
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Excuse me if you've already gotten your answer and I'm just repeating what you know, but I honestly haven't read all the other posts on the topic.
The "What" is Easy
When you need to play an "altered" scale over an "altered" chord just play a "jazz" melodic minor scale a half step/one fret above the root of the chord.
In other words, if you are going to play over an E7alt chord, just play an F "jazz" melodic scale over the E7alt chord and it will automatically produce the whole gamut of "altered" pitches; (E) F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D, E, F. Did you notice the "jazz" melodic minor scale is just an F scale with a flatted 3rd?
Emily Remler has a great video on this topic (Hot Licks, I think). Her sound and approach is very much in the Wes Montgomery groove.
There's More to the "When"
-- how the dominant chord functions in the tune
-- the root motion and resolution
-- your ear
-- your subjective desire for dissonance
-- jazz tradition
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Thanks, Steve. Originally Posted by Steve Montgomery
I already got my answer, but your input helps reinforce the information I already have, and is truly appreciated.
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LOL, we're supposed to listen to someone with a screen name that combines "troll" with "rick roll?" Originally Posted by rictroll
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"Difficult" is a subjective assessment, and input informs output (food, reading material, harmonic knowledge, finger dexterity, etc.), but, I would agree, the ear ultimately rules over all.
I would also defer to two jazz masters who have published on the topic of "altered" chords and scales, and who did a "pretty good" job of demonstrating the outcome of their understanding through their performances: Joe Pass (in book form) and Emily Remler (in instructional video form) support the modal use of the "jazz" melodic minor.
The "jazz" melodic minor scale approach to negotiating altered, half-diminished, minor-major7th, major 7th#5, etc. chords has also been taught for many years at Berkeley School of Music and, thanks to their efforts (and others), is considered common knowledge to a generation or two of jazz musicians.
Gary Burton is another who has done much to promote this harmonic framework with his students. Going back even further, the theoretical seeds
for this system can be traced to "The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization" by George Russell. Too theoretical? Maybe, but it got players thinking and helped them progress.
But does it sound good? Is it worth it? I don't know, does Wes sound good? How about Bill Evans? These really aren't intended to be a sarcastic questions. They hopefully point to the fact that all of the musical greats mentioned here relied on the use of the "jazz" melodic minor scale, in a modal sense, as a major part of their harmonic arsenal.
But without contradicting anything that has been said here, the ear rules.
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If you've heard people say that an easy way to play outside is to play the scale a half step above the tonic center, then you've experienced some form of the altered scale.
Tritone substituting leads to altered chords, when you tritone sub everything in a chord, it gives off the altered alterations that you get in an altered chord (so much alter haha).
Playing a, say, C# major over a Cmajor progression, for example, ii-V, will give a superimposition of just an altered V being played. This is an easy way to think of it though, and it doesn't give out exactly the altered scale.
C# Major (from G) -G# A# B# C# D# E# F# (b9, #9, 4, #11, #5, b7, and 7)
G Altered - G Ab Bb B C# D# F (R, b9, #9, b3, #11, #5, b7)
The altered scale takes out unnecessary notes which really are not part of the chord (7 and 4), using the altered scale, also, makes it more theoretical, knowing what scale you're using rather than "just playing a half step above".
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