How can I "quickly" identify key changes in a composition

**TimW** · 05-22-2012, 11:04 AM

Hi, first thread on the forum.

I have jumped into a Real Book workshop. My first session was last week. The workshop is for all levels. Now keep in mind that I have been playing for 35 years but have never played in a jazz setting.

The workshop works like this. Somebody calls of a page number, we all turn to the song, it's counted off and away we go. We play once through the song with horns playing the melody, then each person takes a solo over the changes. Ending with all playing melody and out......... On to the next.

I was pleased at being able to comp and keep up with the changes, in real time. However, I passed at the solos. I am just not there yet "on the fly" so to speak. It usualy takes me about half an hour to roadmap a song. By roadmap I mean, find the key changes.

I obviously can't take a half an hour to do this. They would be 3 songs ahead of me. It seems like once I find the key changes or tonal center changes, I can at least make it through the songs using my ear and creativity.

Any advise on how to map these quickly or do I just resign myself to the fact that I have jumped in over my head?

**mike g** · 05-22-2012, 11:24 AM

Hi Tim
Think arpeggios when soloing over unfamiliiar changes. Even if you're not sure of the key the arpeggio will have all the right notes for that chord.

Also try to scan the page before playing it and identify any II-V's. If you can recognize the II-V progressions it will give you a good idea of what key center you're in.

**TimW** · 05-22-2012, 12:12 PM

Thanks Mike,

With these unfamiliar songs, the arpeggios are a great idea. I just have a hard time keeping up. I have tried scanning for the II-V and looking for the I chord. Just seems to be so much easier for me "on the fly" to group a block of changes in keys rather than arpeggios and CST.

I am practicing this by using a program called Impro-Visor. https://www.cs.hmc.edu/~keller/jazz/improvisor/

I can open the real book to any page and pull it up on Impro-Visor. Then play the chords over it in real time. I do that once, trying to keep up. Then hit their roadmap button and analyze. The program then wil give me my key centers. I have allot to work on, based on a comparison of their results and my first guess.

I will usually (while practicing) run the chords through JSSS Jazz Scale Suggester System, Learn Improvisation, Software to check it all.

**fep** · 05-22-2012, 12:25 PM

I agree with Mike in post #2. I don't think there is any easier way.

Your question is very broad and hard to answer without writing a book long post. If you were to narrow it down to one song at a time, you'd get better help.

Yesterday I started looking at Green Dolphin Street in this thread:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/jazzg...in-street.html

Post questions there regarding key changes and how to solo over that tune and I think you'll get good responses. Those kind of questions are part of what those 'Practical Standards' posts are all about.

**JakeAcci** · 05-22-2012, 12:28 PM

Actually I think if you learn a small handful of tunes very, very well, complete with analysis and armed with accessible vocabulary, then the process of playing over a brand new tune, from reading, will get much easier.

Once you have analyzed a bunch of tunes you start the see the patterns and then analyzing new tunes gets easier and easier. Once you can play comfortably over some basic tunes like Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, All the things you are, I'll Remember April, Solar, There Will Never Be Another You, etc, then you start to see the same stuff coming up in new tunes, time and time again and you'll have vocabulary to use in these situations.

I don't really think there are any shortcuts, but when I have trouble making harmonic sense of the changes, I simply have to "play the changes" just to get by. If it's too tough to do that on a new tune, I really think that getting very solid on a small number of tunes will help immensely.

I don't know if this is a little too off topic but I also wanted to say that I always prefer hearing somebody playing on four tunes they know really well rather than 'getting by' on a hundred tunes. Some sensitivity to each individual composition is, for lack of a better word, respectful. It's really hard to be musical if you're just getting started and you're trying to make a good performance from just opening up to a new page in the real book. I used to do that a lot, I thought I could just read through and make some music but I didn't really know any tunes by heart. When I focused on a smaller number of tunes, learning them by ear and memorizing them, then working out vocabulary for those tunes, I think my playing improved dramatically.

**TimW** · 05-22-2012, 12:52 PM

Thanks guys, at this point in my short jazz studies, I have been woodshedding the chords, voicings, CST, Arpeggios, ETC.... I currently have no repertoire and no vocabulary. All a work in progress. Jazz music gets my blood pumpin'

I jumped into this class and three others (big band, modern jazz ensemble and jazz improvisation). Just signed up a few weeks ago for a birthday present to myself.

I will continue the analysis portion of my practicing and I completely agree that I would rather play a song that I know really well and be able to articulate how that song makes me feel, by performance. I think the goal of this class is to jump you into a tune with no prior knowledge and see if you can swim.

As for now, currently drowning, I love the nervous feeling it gives me. Just wish I could find these tonal centers a little quicker.

**mike g** · 05-22-2012, 01:00 PM

Jake has some great advice there. I would continue the Real Book workshop but when practicing at home concentrate on one tune at a time. Any of the tunes he mentioned is a good place to start. Eventually you'll get to them all.
As Fep said then you can post questions about specific tunes.
Take a look at these pdf's with some info about II-V's pertaining to specific tunes

**TimW** · 05-22-2012, 01:11 PM

Hah......
Very cool Mike.

"Always surround yourself with people that are smarter than you"

**Dad3353** · 05-22-2012, 01:28 PM

Good evening, Tim...

I'd not heard of 'Improvisor' before; I've just loaded it up and it looks to be extremely useful. I now have a (slight...) chance of perhaps working out how to approach a simple impro over 'Misty'. It's taken me a fair while to get the (vanilla...) chords down; another few months and I'll possibly be up to a modest solo..! (OK, I'm slow, I know, I know...).
JSSS will have to wait for a while; one step at a time...
Thanks for the link.

**mike g** · 05-22-2012, 01:33 PM

Those pages are from "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine. Not everyone here agrees with his approach, but a great resource nonetheless.

Amazon.com: The Jazz Theory Book (9781883217044): Mark Levine: Books

**TimW** · 05-22-2012, 01:41 PM

Dad3353

Make sure and download what they call "The Imaginary Book" something like 500 songs in it. I haven't found one in my real book that it doesn't have.

Mike,

I have that book by Mark Levine. Just haven't cracked it open yet. Didn't know these links were in it. There is way to much information on the internet.

**mike g** · 05-22-2012, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by TimW

Dad3353

Mike,

I have that book by Mark Levine. Just haven't cracked it open yet. Didn't know these links were in it. There is way to much information on the internet.

Tim,
Don't tell anyone but I keep a copy in the bathroom....

**TimW** · 05-22-2012, 02:08 PM

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for all of your help. Since this seems to be my problem de'jour (How can I "quickly" identify key changes in a composition). let me digest this information tonight and I will post tons more questions later.

As for now, I have about 4 bombs exploding in my office that need to be attended to.

Thanks again

**TimW** · 05-23-2012, 12:05 AM

Mike,

I took the pdf files that you sent and opened up Autumn Leaves (thanks for the songs Jake) in the Impro-Visor program. I printed out the chart and then let the program play the song. I played along with the song (playing the chord changes). Then, after it played through once, I stopped playing the guitar and started roadmapping the key centers.
The goal was to let it play three times (while mapping) and then solo over the changes.

This is what I chicken scratched on the chart. By the way, the key centers are in parentheses above the chords. And, it's easier for me to put keys in major (not sure why).

(Gmaj)
Am7 |D7 |GM7 |CM7 |
(Emaj) (Emin)
F#m7b5 |B7 |Em7 |Em6 |
(E Harm Min)
B7 | |Em6 | |
(Gmaj)
Am7 |D7 |GM7 | |
(Gmaj) (Emaj) (Dmaj) (Cmaj)
F#m7b5 |B7 |Em7 A7 |Dm7 G7 |
(Gmaj) (Emaj) (Emin) (Amaj)
F#m7b5 |B7 |Em6 |E7 |

Now I know this is very elementary. But most of this actually sounded correct. I am aware that there is probably tons of harmonic and jazz minor applications. Will work on that soon.

Thanks for the boost................!

**TimW** · 05-23-2012, 12:16 AM

Sorry that chart didn't line up correctly, the way I typed it out. But you get the idea.

**jtizzle** · 05-23-2012, 01:16 AM

In jazz you shouldn't be thinking "key". Think about the chord you're playing rather than the key, think of a melody or a lick and what how the notes relate to the chord. If you have D- G7 Cmaj, you can obviously think C major, but there are some nice choices of notes over each chord that aren't in the key of C major. Example could be all the altered notes on G7 (b9, #9, #11, #5, #13) or altered notes on a major chord (#11, #5) ect.

**TimW** · 05-23-2012, 01:33 AM

Yeah,

I've been working on the melodic minor applications. However at this point in the class, I am just working on not passing up on the solo opportunity. Spur of the moment. I kind of wish they would give us 5 songs to work on for the next class and let me analyze the chart a little. Heck even 15 minutes to get an idea together would be great.

Instead its Ready..... Set....... Go.

Keep in mind I was just happy to get through compin' the chords without stumbling. Never played in any live session with a horn player and there are 7 of them in the class.

Thanks for the advise jtizzle. So much to learn. I am really enjoying myself.

**jtizzle** · 05-23-2012, 02:05 AM

That's the thing about jazz, you need to prepare it yourself. Google "best jazz tunes to know". There's even threads about it on here. They're the top on the list for a reason. Has all the things you'll run into in a jazz setting in that song. Take a look at those songs, figure out the "why", but more important, the "how" of the progression.

**mike g** · 05-24-2012, 09:53 AM

Tim
Looking at the analysis you did on autumn leaves I would call the F#-7b5-B7 a II-V in Emin. Theres really no E maj tonality here. Other than that It looks pretty good.

**TimW** · 05-24-2012, 10:08 AM

Thanks Mike,

The Emaj was actually over the B7. The darn format scooted it over when I uploaded the reply. Hey, I took the list of songs that Jake sent and tried them all last night (paying for the lack of sleep today). Some very cool charts.

I tried the same process with them. played the songs (chords) the first time through. Then, let th progressions play through 2 or 3 times while I tried to roadmap them. Then improvised over the progression on the 3rd or 4th time.

I kind of surprised myself. Even got in some jazz minor and harmonic applications.

After I ran through the improv portion of my practice, I checked the results through both of the programs that I'm using (the Impro-Visor and JSSS).

Not feeling so nervous about class in a couple of days. Thanks for all of your help man!!

**Melodic Dreamer** · 05-24-2012, 05:20 PM

Wow, these programs look really interesting. I'll definitely have to try them out when I get home.

**gingerjazz** · 05-24-2012, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by TimW

Hah......
Very cool Mike.

"Always surround yourself with people that are smarter than you"

Never seemed to have any trouble doing that.

**TimW** · 05-24-2012, 05:39 PM

They are very helpful, to me. The JSSS one costs a couple of bucks for the full version. I like them both.

I have messed up the Impro-Visor a couple of times. I went on their forum and the darned creator of the program responded to me within 24 hours and told me how to fix what I messed up.

That's beyond customer service.

**TimW** · 05-29-2012, 09:21 AM

Just a quick update,

I went to class on Saturday and stayed for their second session (3 hours straight). I only passed on a few solo's. I was able to keep up fairly well and if a chart through me off, I opted for the arpeggios. And, tried to play the changes.

I spent a lot of late night hours over the weekend roadmapping several songs. Am starting to see several patterns emerge.

I don't think that I like the concept of trying to analyse the keys or tonal centers and will probably look at other options in the near future. However, this (key center) approach has taken me from square 0 to square 1.

I have the Jazz Improv class starting in a week or so and am looking forward to getting my ass handed to me by the instructor. Any ideas from the forum on my next improvisation steps will be greatly appreciated.

I am soaking this stuff up like a sponge. By the way, I spent several hours on Monday with arpeggios and trying to connect ii - V - I progressions. I don't have a problem with the "how to play" Technically I am pretty fair. It's the "why and when" that I need to concentrate on.