Why Guitar Modes?

[tylerguitar75]

First of all, I want to be clear. I have studied guitar modes, I know how they work, I know what they are, I completely understand the concept.

I understand that Ionian is I, Dorian is II, Phrygian III, etc. and that all modes come from the major scale.

Modes are very useful to me in a lot of learning aspects of music. But-this is the thing. It doesn't matter if I play a solo in D dorian, E phrygian, A aeolian, or G mixolydian- it all sounds like C, because it is C. This drives me nuts!!

I'm not asking what modes are, or where they come from. I'm just wondering-How do you actually make modes a useful tool when soloing?

Thanks for your help

[docbop]

Each mode has a sound associated with it so you need to know the signature notes each mode. So when playing thru a set of changes you need to focus on the notes of the chord and the note(s) that give the mode its sound. Its no different than playing in a key center instead of modally you have to play the essential chord tones to make the changes come out the the key scale. So doesn't if you use modes or key centers you have to use the right notes.

[Aristotle]

I'm just wondering-How do you actually make modes a useful tool when soloing? Thanks for your help

I think modes are part of a knowledge base, but they are not tools. I am sure someone will come along with a different take.

[mr. beaumont]

They're all the notes for Cmajor, but you stress different notes in each when applying them.

Just another roadmap--there's no magic in the notes, but in certain situations, they might be the most logical way to visualize the available pool of notes.

Take "so what" for example, a quintessential "dorian" tune. Now I could think C major over that D minor sound and have the same notes to draw from, but if I view it from a D minor perspective the "important notes" become clearer.

[the_emptier]

the tonality of your playing depends on what notes you resolve too, if a chord progression outlines a dorion esque style then resolving to C or F would just be weird.

[fumblefingers]

First of all, I want to be clear. I have studied modes, I know how they work, I know what they are, I completely understand the concept. I understand that Ionian is I, Dorian is II, Phrygian III, etc. and that all modes come from the major scale. Modes are very useful to me in a lot of learning aspects of music. But-this is the thing. It doesn't matter if I play a solo in D dorian, E phrygian, A aeolian, or G mixolydian- it all sounds like C, because it is C. This drives me nuts!! I'm not asking what modes are, or where they come from. I'm just wondering-How do you actually make modes a useful tool when soloing? Thanks for your help

i'm gonna yield to one or more of the heavies on this site to answer this question with more authority.

as for me, i would say that you need a modal tune first.

and you treat the mode in question the same way that you would treat a "key". its the center. it's home. it your expression base.

[voelker]

Modes serve as a visual reference for memorizing the major scale all over the fretboard. but like others have eluded to, it doesn't matter what notes you play as long as you are emphasizing the chord tones.

[bako]

Different inherent harmonies are contained within each scale type.
They are known by finding all the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 note structures contained within the scale in relation to each note treated as a central tone.
They are best understood by knowing how they sound. That is further strengthened by knowing the associated names and interval connected with all the note combinations.

Example:

intervals
C-C Unison/ 8ve / (15ve) generally called an 8ve
C-D Ma2nd/ Ma9th
C-E Ma3rd/ Ma10th
C-F P4th/ 11th
C-G P5th/ (12th) generally called a P5th
C-A Ma6th/ 13th
C-B Ma7th/ (Ma14th) generally called a Ma7th

Full extension in 3rds:

C-E-G-B-D-F-A 1 3 5 7 9 11 13

C-E Ma3rd
C-E-G Major triad
C-E-G-B Ma7th chord
C-E-G-B-D Ma9th chord
C-(E)-G-B-D-F 11th chord (the F note played above E messes with the major chordal quality and would frequently be voiced with the E omitted)
C-E-G-B-D-(F)-A Ma13th chord or Ma13Sus if the F is played instead of the E

Apply this process to each degree as the centric tone. In every key. With several scale types.

The word modes these days most often refers to thinking along these lines and not modal music per se.
One can find pages of material in this forum arguing about such points (not required reading IMO)

When there is an accompanist playing, they are generally setting up the functional harmony.
It is the lowest note and the chord implied that creates the framework that melodies play within.
It matters only slightly that I believe myself to be playing A Aeolian against C major chord.
It leads only to emphasizing certain intervals within the Ionian extension being stated by the piano player.

When playing solo melody it is the tones emphasized that creates the implied harmony.

To me, modes and various note collections provide a snapshot of common usage components of the chromatic scale.
They can be expanded or simplified as suits our musical intention of the moment.

One way to train your ear is by playing modes against a parallel pedal tone.

C Pedal Tone

CDEFGAB
CDEbFGABb
CDbEbFGAbBb
CDEF#GAB
CDEFGABb
CDEbFGAbBb
CDbEbFGbAbBb

Apply the same process to Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Harmonic Major, Diminished, Whole Tone, various Pentatonics and Hexatonics.
Any scale that you deem useful because of it's inherent harmonies.

[Reg]

I've posted my understandings of how modal playing works... a bunch of times. Here's one I found... read through and check out the video...

We generally think/hear in Maj. Ionian. tri-tones resolve in standard fashion, G7 goes to Cmaj7 or some version of... In jazz modal music, there are characteristic pitches and different functions or resolutions. When we decide to call a collection of pitches a mode rather than a scale, we imply different melodic and harmonic functions, system of controlling harmonic movement.
The I chord of each mode is always tonic and most important chord in our new modal world and each of other chords have the characteristic Pitch or don't have CP . The traditional Tonic, Sub-Dom., Sub-Dom. Min. and Dominant are gone, We do have function but it is defined by chords having CP or not having. Everyone knows Dorian or "So What"etc...
In Dorian the CP is the 6th degree or if were in D Dorian "B", so in our Modal Dorian world, there are chords with "B" and without.

D-7 ......tonic chord
E-7........has characteristic pitch
Fmaj7....no characteristic pitch
G7 ........has CP, but has Tri-tone and will strongly imply Cmaj. (avoided)
A-7........no CP
B-7b5.....has CP, but has Tri-tone and will also strongly imply Cmaj.
Cmaj7....has CP
In our D Dorian Modal World, G7 and B-7b5 have the all powerful tri-tone which very strongly implies the key C or modal sound of Ionian. So if were trying to imply D Dorian we would stay away from those two chords or use carfully. We would imply our D Dorian world by calling chords with the characteristic pitch,(B), our cadence chords. Examples of cadence would be...
E-7 to D-7....II-7 t0 I-7
Cmaj7 to D-7... VIImaj7 to I-7.
This is the basics... Phrigian's CP is b2, Aeolian's is 6 etc...
You add Modal interchange and the rest of the scales and you have a lot of material to work with. I'll try and scan some examples from standard, many tune have modal sections. Best Reg

[Baltar Hornbeek]

It doesn't matter if I play a solo in D dorian, E phrygian, A aeolian, or G mixolydian- it all sounds like C, because it is C.

Yup, you're getting close, but in fact they do not all sound like "C". To me dorian sounds like drunken shamrocks, phrygian sounds like sangria and tamales, and mixolydian sounds like an old truck.

[Aristotle]

Tyler,
You have a lot of info here - like I said - modes are more knwoledge base than a tool.

A point of caution. In most songs, the chords go by to fast to really establish a mode of their own. So What is more "modal" because it keeps a D root and C-scale harmony for 16 and 24 measures. But even then, as the soloist, you don't have to stay in D-Dorian.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

It doesn't matter if I play a solo in D dorian, E phrygian, A aeolian, or G mixolydian- it all sounds like C, because it is C. This drives me nuts!!

Try this:

Play the C major scale up and down a few times:

C D E F G A B C B A G F E D C

Then immediately play the E phrygian scale:

E F G A B C D E D C B A G F E

Still sounds like C major, right? That's because your ear was primed for it.

Eat a peice of bread or a little sherbert!

Now play the E major scale a few times and let your bass E ring out at the same time as a drone:

E...................................
E F# G# A B C# D# E D# C# B A G# F# E

Then immediately play the E phrygian scale with your bass E ringing:

E.............................
E F G A B C D E D C B A G F E

Hmmm?

[docbop]

In general the half-steps are where the modes flavor usually lies. Like Dorian play a minor chord vamp then play some Dorian and emphasis the natural 6 and b7. That natural 6 is the sound of Dorian. Phrygian repeat the chord but this time emphasize the root and b9. Go thru the modes really listening to the notes that make them different.

Where the problem lies is guitarist are so into finger patterns the tend to treat modes as just finger patterns and then say what you did, it still sounds like the parent scale. Its like people learning to improvise are given something like Autumn Leave where its going from Major to Relative Minor. All the notes are the same, so if you don't change the notes you emphasize you will sound lost. This is where adding some work on arpeggios and guide tones helps you learn key notes to pull out of scales/modes so your lines work.

[rlemos]

First of all, I want to be clear. I have studied modes, I know how they work, I know what they are, I completely understand the concept. I understand that Ionian is I, Dorian is II, Phrygian III, etc. and that all modes come from the major scale. Modes are very useful to me in a lot of learning aspects of music. But-this is the thing. It doesn't matter if I play a solo in D dorian, E phrygian, A aeolian, or G mixolydian- it all sounds like C, because it is C. This drives me nuts!! I'm not asking what modes are, or where they come from. I'm just wondering-How do you actually make modes a useful tool when soloing? Thanks for your help

Hello, great question. Lots of good answers here. I always wondered myself. Here is a shortcut way to get a handle on the sounds of modes using Am.

What is difference between A Dorian, A Aeolian and A Phrygian? You can get the "theory" from others that have posted here. You have asked, "I'm just wondering-How do you actually make modes a useful tool when soloing?"

Answer: use these modes in an ACTUAL chord progression.

A Dorian (A B C D E F# G) = Key of G
|: C/A D/A :|
Use A as bass note
Two beats each chord
Do C chord at 5th fret with bass A at 6th strg/5th fret (looks like Am7)
Do D chord at 7th fret with bass A at 6th strg/5th fret
End every phrase on an Am7 chord tone.

A Phrygian (A Bb C D E F G) = Key of F
|: Bb/A C/A :|
Use A as bass note
Two beats each chord
Do Bb chord at 3rd fret with bass A at 6th strg/5th fret
Do C chord at 5th fret with bass A at 6th strg/5th fret
End every phrase on an Am7 chord tone.

A Aeolian (A B C D E F G) = Key of C
|: F/A G/A :|
Use A as bass note
Two beats each chord
Do F chord at 10th fret with bass A at 5th strg/10th fret
Do G chord at 12th fret with bass A at 5th strg/10th fret
End every phrase on an Am7 chord tone.

These are mode progressions using the 4th and 5th chords of the "parent" key. Try different styles (latin, jazz, rock). You can use this technique with the other modes (e.g., use G Mixolydian over the progression F/G G/G). However, the diatonic minors really help compare the "minor chords" with each other in an ACTUAL progression.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[Spirit59]

I often have seen that beginners are initially attracted to a tune like So What or Impressions because they think they'll have a better chance of sounding good, and there's very few changes to hit. Then they realize that they have nothing to say on the tune. Guys who play the shit out of these type of tunes are bringing a lot more to the table than the "dorian mode" - they bring all that depth from bebop, blues, and playing over other "imagined" harmony.

Edit: Had to add that Miles kept it simple and seemed to do ok

[Shadow of the Sun]

All in all, I think the main issue with chord scale theory is that a lot of players don't get that you still need to target the chord tones successfully. Some players get it into their head that they can just noodle in scale X over chord Y without having to actually reference the chord in question. Proper voiceleading among the chords is necessary, too. Every good jazz musician targets chord tones well, whether they play with scales or ornaments or whatever.

This is basically what JonnyPac is on about- a lot of players focus on the chord-scale aspect and ignore the linear harmony.

[mattymel]

"understanding modes is the secret to playing the changes..."

thats got to be the biggest waste of time there is. the OP pretty much had it when he said that "its still all "C". its where you are on the guitar neck. that about it for "modes" unless you are playing a "modal" tune. they aint gonna help you on anything else unless you know CHORD TONES.

[Shadow of the Sun]

See the above two posts.

Modes can be very useful as a pool of potential tones that give a certain sound. You've still gotta target the chord tones, but modes certainly ain't useless.

[Reg]

The method of using modal concepts as a system of controlling function, resolutions and general tendencies as an approach when playing jazz is about as basic as it gets when covering jazz.

If your not aware of how it influences our playing... you might be missing one of the, as I said, basic understanding of playing jazz. Your playing, your ears... well you are probable already incorporating the concept in your playing/hearing and are just unaware. One of the simplest examples would be using a blues approach over any standard.

The basic concept behind modal playing is.... there are different harmonic and melodic tendencies as compared to traditional function, resolutions and voice leading... where and what the music wants to do.

So as I was saying when you approach from a blues perspective... your using the modal concept of controlling where and what the music wants to do... but instead of using one of the standard modes and it's controlling concept, your using blues. Obviously that's a very simple example and there are many more sources for applying modal concepts and usually there are many going on simultaneously... another one of those difficulties of playing and understanding jazz.

So maybe the basic understanding of the modes and their characteristic notes, intervals and tendencies is old hat and not really used much anymore... but the concept and method of use... when approaching tunes, composing etc... is a basic concept of jazz. Reg

[mattymel]

nothing with modes that i dont understand. i prefer to think in terms harmony, not scales, as everything i have transcribed and played could be much more easily explained via imposing different harmonies over chords.

not denying there are certain "modal" tunes where thinking phrygian is useful. just not in playing rhythm changes or giant steps where there are too many tonal centers to be thinking modes AT ALL.

[JonnyPac]

Love the post, Reg.

[Shadow of the Sun]

nothing with modes that i dont understand. i prefer to think in terms harmony, not scales, as everything i have transcribed and played could be much more easily explained via imposing different harmonies over chords.

not denying there are certain "modal" tunes where thinking phrygian is useful. just not in playing rhythm changes or giant steps where there are too many tonal centers to be thinking modes AT ALL.

If you're still thinking, you're not doing it right.

The eventual goal- and this takes a lot of work- is to see a chord, and to automatically know what non-chord tones work well on top of it. It takes just as much time to figure that out when you're learning if you're imposing harmonies over the top of it, or if you're using modes to determine what non-chord tones work well on a given chord.

Same destination, different path. Different landmarks along the way, sure, but you both get there at the same time.

[Reg]

nothing with modes that i dont understand. i prefer to think in terms harmony, not scales, as everything i have transcribed and played could be much more easily explained via imposing different harmonies over chords.

not denying there are certain "modal" tunes where thinking phrygian is useful. just not in playing rhythm changes or giant steps where there are too many tonal centers to be thinking modes AT ALL.

hey matt not sure you understood my point... the actual playing with implied guidelines from each mode such as phrygian... with it's characteristic pitch, intervals and how harmony works in that mode, resolutions voiceleading etc...the actual method or how you choose to play the notes, scales, arpeggios, any harmonic or melodic application...was not the point... what I was trying to express is how we use the concept of having different guidelines, such as "modal", "modal interchange" or "multiple tonic systems" as in Giant Steps or even approaching rhythm changes with different "harmonic rhythmic" pattern as opposed to standard tonic, sub-dom, dom. resolutions... like imposing a tonic, sub-dom harmonic scheme... avoid V-I's or any versions of. The point is we're not locked into the traditional functional harmony concepts, not that everyone is or ever has been, but in jazz there are many methods, concepts...that are accepted practice and many of those have been developed from or incorporate modal practice. How could one even play jazz without use of modal interchange...
Just for info... playing modal is a harmonic concept... not simply a scale or melodic concept. In jazz we refer to starting on different degrees of a scale as the modes of a scale simply for convenience of talking.... Reg

[Fast Bebop]

First of all, I want to be clear. I have studied modes, I know how they work, I know what they are, I completely understand the concept. I understand that Ionian is I, Dorian is II, Phrygian III, etc. and that all modes come from the major scale. Modes are very useful to me in a lot of learning aspects of music. But-this is the thing. It doesn't matter if I play a solo in D dorian, E phrygian, A aeolian, or G mixolydian- it all sounds like C, because it is C. This drives me nuts!! I'm not asking what modes are, or where they come from. I'm just wondering-How do you actually make modes a useful tool when soloing? Thanks for your help

If this drives you crazy, think modes as chords, not scales. In So what, it's the Dmin7 chord that makes your C ionian scale sounds dorian.

You can think modes melodicaly but in that case you have to insist on the strong notes of the mode.

Cheers,

FB

[voelker]

If this drives you crazy, think modes as chords, not scales. In So what, it's the Dmin7 chord that makes your C ionian scale sounds dorian.

You can think modes melodicaly but in that case you have to insist on the strong notes of the mode.

Cheers,

FB

Well put, a single note played by itself would have the same character as any other note played by itself. This is why most people can't tell you the pitch name of a single note, but when played over a chord, many people could tell you the interval of that note in relation to the chord. Like in physics, movement must defined in relation to a set point