Why Guitar Modes?

[mwtzzz]

I'm just wondering-How do you actually make modes a useful tool when soloing? Thanks for your help

The thing that nobody talks about, which everybody should talk about, because its one of the most important things, is which tones to avoid on which chords. For each chord, there is one or more tones (from the key or mode) to avoid when soloing, and there's good reason those specific tones are to be avoided. It can be explained exactly why.

So unless you know what those tones are, you're just shooting in the dark and it really makes no sense to talk about modes.

[mwtzzz]

Even though an old post, I'll elaborate a bit.

Improvisation is all about harmony, it's not about modes or scales. It's about putting together chord changes, but instead of playing them as chords (vertically) you play them as melody (linearly.)

Once you have the chord progression you will use for the improvisation, then you need to know which tones are appropriate to play over each chord. These tones are mostly from the mode or scale, but as I mentioned before, there is always at least one tone in the scale that must be avoided so as not to corrupt the harmony. Such a tone is specific and defined. Avoid tone(s) for Chord A are different than for Chord B.

A mode or scale is only relevant in as far as it gives you the key of the song. Where people get hung up is that they don't know which tones to avoid when playing over the chords, and they don't realize that when they are improvising what they are really doing is implying a sequence of harmonies.

As far as modes go, I know people like to think of them as something different, something not grounded in the major key, but in fact each mode is simply a different harmony in the major key. When you improvise over a mode, you are actually avoiding or repeating certain tones (whether you realize it or not), and in doing so, you are implying different harmonies within that key. Your "modus operandi" may be different than when you play a conventional chord-based song in the key, but the end result is the same as planning out a chord-progression and knowing which tones to use and which ones to avoid.

In any case, the grander question of improvisation always gets back to harmony.

[mike walker]

Even though an old post, I'll elaborate a bit.

Improvisation is all about harmony, it's not about modes or scales. It's about putting together chord changes, but instead of playing them as chords (vertically) you play them as melody (linearly.)

Once you have the chord progression you will use for the improvisation, then you need to know which tones are appropriate to play over each chord. These tones are mostly from the mode or scale, but as I mentioned before, there is always at least one tone in the scale that must be avoided so as not to corrupt the harmony. Such a tone is specific and defined. Avoid tone(s) for Chord A are different than for Chord B.

A mode or scale is only relevant in as far as it gives you the key of the song. Where people get hung up is that they don't know which tones to avoid when playing over the chords, and they don't realize that when they are improvising what they are really doing is implying a sequence of harmonies.

As far as modes go, I know people like to think of them as something different, something not grounded in the major key, but in fact each mode is simply a different harmony in the major key. When you improvise over a mode, you are actually avoiding or repeating certain tones (whether you realize it or not), and in doing so, you are implying different harmonies within that key. Your "modus operandi" may be different than when you play a conventional chord-based song in the key, but the end result is the same as planning out a chord-progression and knowing which tones to use and which ones to avoid.

In any case, the grander question of improvisation always gets back to harmony.

There are no avoid notes. Every note is legit. It's how you choose them, use them.

[mwtzzz]

There are no avoid notes. Every note is legit. It's how you choose them, use them.

Not quite. There are qualifications and it has to do with rhythm and arpeggiation.

Beginning musicians and improvisors should avoid the avoid tones, this is the best way to learn. Later on they can learn proper use of them.

Actually I wrote a book on harmony that explains all this. I could go into an explanation here, but I would just be repeating exactly what I've written in the book, so it's easiest to simply refer you to it if you're interested.

-M

[mike walker]

I totally get the rhythmic side and the arp side.
But avoid note is a terrible term.
In impro there are no avoid notes.
If we want a student to play only with chord tones and use rhythm etc etc that's a different matter.

But I'll be glad to hear a further explanation, man.

[Reg]

Hey mwtzzz...
I don't think it's that difficult to explain how harmony works... give it a shot.

I tend to agree with your view about Harmony. And by harmony I mean the reference for creating relationships with your improve... But you must be aware that solos also direct harmony, right. We're not soloing over a backing track.

And there plenty of melodic concepts that the harmony is a result of...

Your corruption tone concept, the avoid notes... again is all about the context ... the relationship created or being created.

Your book must be for beginners, but I tend to believe this method of teaching.... Trust me now, and I'll fix the problems latter... may not be the best approach, personal opinion.

Isn't Mike's statement "How You Use Them", exactly what you implying.

Reg

[mr. beaumont]

"Handle with care" notes, as Levine calls them...

I agree with the concept of no "avoid" notes, but for a different reason. You can't bog a beginner down with what they can't do.

[RyanM]

I think the only problem is when some teachers push Chord-scale theory as an improvisation method in itself... Telling a student to play D Dorian over D minor isn't much more helpful than telling them to play D minor over D minor if the don't know what to do with it yet.

That usually comes from the jazz camps where they have to teach 200 kids to improvise in two weeks so they give them a chart with chord-scales and avoid notes... well at least they probably won't sound horrible.

Modal concepts is really more of an advanced thing.

[md54]

There are only 12 notes, 24 keys and 36 chords(sort of).

At any point in musical time a chord might occurr. Any of the 12 notes are valid against that chord but some sound inside some are on the edge and some are outside but they are all valid. The best music has elements of all three (inside,edge,outside).

Go figure.

[md54]

We are talking about any kind of music.
If we are thinking about a major chord.
Inside= root,3,5,7 or 6 if its a 6 chord
edge= 9,#4,#5.
outside=flat3, flat 9, flat7.
Thats 12 I think?

That applies to all chords but the relationships change ie the flat 3 becomes inside when over a minor.

Your phrases should use any of the twelve tones. Just use them...... musically. If you analyse the great solos they are full of grace notes that are 'outside.' As the OP says if you just play 'the mode' it sounds boring.

Modes are just scales nothing more. Music educationalists like to complicate everything to justify their job. Its taken me years to get over the 'avoid note' nonsense.

Think food.

Meat and two veg. Essential but dull =inside
sauce= edge= more interesting
salt pepper= outside= ok but over do it and its ruined

I could write a music theory book that covers all aspects of jazz in 3 sheets.

[Reg]

I'll answer my question...relationships create what your calling inside, edge and outside. At least that's my opinion. And relationships .... are very different depending on the type of music... Again in my opinion.

I think many of your outside notes are very inside in many jazz contexts. I only counted 11, 11th was missing, who cares, I get you point and would agree in many context.

Many of the outside notes from the great solos are inside notes when you recognize the relationship.

I dig your meat and veg analogy ...

I usually use modal concepts, which are very interesting. Different systems of organizing same collection of notes... Create different base references from where to create relationships and develop.

Are you new to this jazz guitar forum, if so welcome. Generally it's not a great idea to have first few post tell everyone how things are... But I like your style,

Reg

[vsaumarez]

First of all, I want to be clear. I have studied modes, I know how they work, I know what they are, I completely understand the concept. I understand that Ionian is I, Dorian is II, Phrygian III, etc. and that all modes come from the major scale. Modes are very useful to me in a lot of learning aspects of music. But-this is the thing. It doesn't matter if I play a solo in D dorian, E phrygian, A aeolian, or G mixolydian- it all sounds like C, because it is C. This drives me nuts!! I'm not asking what modes are, or where they come from. I'm just wondering-How do you actually make modes a useful tool when soloing? Thanks for your help

You've already cracked it, so you have in a way answered your own question. The application of modes in improvising is as you explained it. It all boils down to the mother scale. The same applies to the use of scales in improvising. Improvising is a slightly misleading term, because you are not improvising with individual notes, just as speech is not improvising with individual letters. Musical ideas, or melodies may have their origins in scales, rhythm, arpeggios etc but jazz, like language has rules, grammar, stock phrases, idioms, punctuation and so on. Once you have grasped this, modes will be left far behind you.

[Reg]

Hey Tylerguitar75 and vsaumaren...

There is a big difference between simply using the term "Mode " to describe a collection of notes starting on different degrees of a parent scale. Example C major, starting on 2nd degree on C maj and calling that D Dorian etc... and compared to playing that collection of notes, D Dorian and understanding what modal means... what implying D Dorian implies.

The point of playing modally implies different notes are going to be the notes that define how harmony functions. What makes harmony function, Function means how and why chords go where they do.

It's common practice to combine harmonic functional systems when playing. Harmonic functional system are guideline which control Function, (function, how and why chords go where they go).

When you simply play, for example C Maj scale over D dorian, E phry.... that's what you sound like. There again is a difference between playing chord tones and implying different chords in a progression as compared to implying those same chords in a modal style. The same is true when your playing in a melodic style... your line is your starting point for improve, that line also has modal implications.

It's great to simplify... but when the simplifications doesn't reflect what's implied... again that's what you'll sound like... hardly playing in a jazz style.

Once you've internalized modal concepts, by lots of trial and error or understanding the concepts... yea leave them behind.

Improve is about the moment, reacting and interacting, but without being aware, in this case modal concepts, you won't be able to also be in the future... what we play in the moment has implications, some of those imply where we want to go.
An example using modal concepts... if I develop modal relationships in section of a tune.... I'm opening that door for the next time the tune comes to that section. What I'm playing in the moment has relationships to what I'm going to play in the future...

OK... I'm drifting, sorry. Anyway Become aware of what modal implication are and how to use them.

Reg