The levels of understanding modes

[Reg]

Hey baguette...
First lets start simple ... Chord scale is not a system of determining tonality... rather just a method of visualizing and talking about a given complete vertical note collection at any given point...

And there are levels to what one can define as tonality. I'm very aware of expanded tonalities beyond simple note content... and there is more going on than reference to the main tonic(s).

If you really get into to Chord Scales... you really can't determine what the note collection is with out understanding function and relationships. And there are usually choices... depending which tonal system you hear or choose to imply...

Now if you take others choices as to what the correct chord scales are... who's fault is that... I for one always stress understanding the concept behind the application...always.

Chord scales are just applications of different concepts.... to turn chord scales into a concept would require a method of determining note collections...

Understanding Tonal concepts or tonal systems... requires years of study... to say the least... how many have the time or motivation.

Of course the reason most get into chord scales... it's faster and more fun for many who will in reality never understand any tonal systems. And yes it can be very misleading... but how many will ever really understand tonal concepts or chord scale source concepts... "How things really work... "

The misuse of the traditional or more contemporary word Modal... is fine with me... I understand traditional or historic usage and am very comfortable with pop or whatever musicians decide to use. It's simply a word... if it helps beginners get to the next level... Great.
I don't dismiss the problem... there are many more... but I see a bigger picture... I want musicians to have access to playing jazz... I try and not get hung up on simple applications details... I or someone else will try and make them understand more later... when what we're talking about might actually make since...

Being aware of the main tonic... is not the entire picture... and can change... with awareness...

I do agree in principle with your approach to not skip fundamentals of understanding music and musicianship... but might be a little softer on when to actually dig into the details...

This is just music... it's not that serious... we don't save or really change lives... Reg

[baguette]

Hey baguette...
First lets start simple ... Chord scale is not a system of determining tonality... rather just a method of visualizing and talking about a given complete vertical note collection at any given point...

I didn't say that it is a system of determining tonality, I am curious, please say what make you think I say that

And there are levels to what one can define as tonality. I'm very aware of expanded tonalities beyond simple note content... and there is more going on than reference to the main tonic(s).

I didn't say the opposite to any of that, I wonder here as well what did I say that imply this.
I even said explicitely that I consider possible to hear each root as tonics.

If you really get into to Chord Scales... you really can't determine what the note collection is with out understanding function and relationships.

Then we don't agree about what is function.
I think we can really understand function only when we can hear it.
For exemple listening a simple melody and just be able to sing the note that is the tonic, the dominant etcetera.
We need to be able to do that to really hear the tonal tendencies of the notes.
Otherwise we just understand intellectually, we understand the mathematical part of the notation rather than the musical meaning.

And there are usually choices... depending which tonal system you hear or choose to imply...

what do you mean by "depending which tonal system" ?

Now if you take others choices as to what the correct chord scales are... who's fault is that... I for one always stress understanding the concept behind the application...always.

Chord scales are just applications of different concepts.... to turn chord scales into a concept would require a method of determining note collections...

Understanding Tonal concepts or tonal systems... requires years of study... to say the least... how many have the time or motivation.

I think this is more about hearing the concepts than understanding them.

Of course the reason most get into chord scales... it's faster and more fun for many who will in reality never understand any tonal systems. And yes it can be very misleading... but how many will ever really understand tonal concepts or chord scale source concepts... "How things really work... "

Faster than what ?
As far as improvisation is about playing what you hear, then chordscale are not faster, they are not the most direct path to what we hear.
If the goal is to play "stuffs", without very wrong notes, then yes this makes sens as a technic. But the risk is also to train the habit to not play what we hear.

The misuse of the traditional or more contemporary word Modal... is fine with me... I understand traditional or historic usage and am very comfortable with pop or whatever musicians decide to use. It's simply a word... if it helps beginners get to the next level... Great.

well i agree with that only to some degree
for me as long as it is hearable, it's more than a word

"blue"
It's just a word.
But when we read the word "blue", we immediately visualise mentally the "blue" color.
Words in music theory have the same purpose, but for the hearing.

I don't dismiss the problem... there are many more... but I see a bigger picture... I want musicians to have access to playing jazz... I try and not get hung up on simple applications details... I or someone else will try and make them understand more later... when what we're talking about might actually make since...

Being aware of the main tonic... is not the entire picture... and can change... with awareness...

I do agree in principle with your approach to not skip fundamentals of understanding music and musicianship... but might be a little softer on when to actually dig into the details...

This is just music... it's not that serious... we don't save or really change lives... Reg

Personnaly I would have prefered to have access to that information earlier.
As I said I understand the idea to have something to have fun with fast, but if you look closer you see that people will get stuck with that for years, without beeing able to go beyond that.

I also don't like the aspect of chordscale where it's presented like it will be your companion for life. It feels like it's a sect or a religion.

[Reg]

We obviously have different definitions of what we hear... I'm OK with that... I was not directing most of comments at you... more as to define where I'm coming from... Trying to give a base from which we can talk about... general info...I'm not trying to have a personal conversation with you... I'm trying to help explain musical concepts... at least my personal interpretations... I could simple quote and comment... but I'm hoping people reading will learn from the process...

It seems that I misunderstood your point that many people use chordscales as an alternative to not really understanding the tonal concepts etc... so what is your concept of determining tonality...
simply using our trained ears... without perfect pitch it's very difficult to determine pitch without reference... and there are many ways to create reference... I have no problem reading and writing music without an instrument... for better or worse... but I think most can be trained to do so... that's pretty much required in the profession.

How do you define function... I generally refer to function as relationships between elements in a tonal system which we determine which elements will determine the tonality.... different systems will have different elements determining function...

I don't limit function to what only my ears accept or have been trained to hear. I'm alright with self contained or individual systems...

And I'm OK with single element, one tonic... Depending on what that tonic is... the same melodic or harmonic structure or extended section of melodic and harmonic structures will be different depending on what that tonic is.
I'm ok and can hear function being relationship of a chord to a tonal center... and not simply the basic three of Functional Harmony... any system of structural principles used to control their relationships... chord or pitch associations...

I like different systems used simultaneously... like jazz. Which can change with each performance... or not.

I don't have preset divine tonal tendencies...but I can recognize implied tendencies.

Tonal systems are any set of notes, chords etc... whatever we decide to use as the elements of the relationships between which we use to determine tonality. And the structural principles controlling those relationships... Riemann's Functional Harmony is a tonal system... Many don't recognize the usage... give then another 50 years...

Again we differ on the meaning of hearing... the musical logic or mathematical, intellectual aspects of musical hearing have just as much merit as the psychological aspects... to me they're intertwined...

The reference to faster... is most can learn chord scales and hear very quickly... they can become aware of complete vertical note collections and any given point ... fast... no work involved.... and the application of using is also fast... as compared to any method ... you don't have to understand to use.... of course that's usually what it sounds like... but still... it's fairly simple ... and fast, do the work required to understand... when you need it. I agree... it is a technique... an application used as a technique... OK... who cares... If that technique opens doors for musicians to begin the long road to playing jazz... cool.

Ok..sorry I have gigs.... quickly..."Blue" used in jazz implies a whole lot of hearing to me...

I don't know you, don't know your playing...I would like to, I respect your sincerity, knowledge and since of music... But I'm old... I did all my early research listening and playing music... and spent way too much time in libraries and academia...yada, yada....
Access is basically unlimited in recent years... you either want to know or you don't... Reg

[Buster Loaf]

People talking a lot, but they're not saying anything.

[Reg]

Yea ... That's a very tonal tune... but we could play it in a modal tonality.
Or just in a jazz/blues style... greasy...
Lets post examples of understanding modes using People talking or even Girl Talk...

[Nuff Said]

We obviously have different definitions of what we hear... I'm OK with that... I was not directing most of comments at you... more as to define where I'm coming from... Trying to give a base from which we can talk about... general info...I'm not trying to have a personal conversation with you... I'm trying to help explain musical concepts... at least my personal interpretations... I could simple quote and comment... but I'm hoping people reading will learn from the process...

It seems that I misunderstood your point that many people use chordscales as an alternative to not really understanding the tonal concepts etc... so what is your concept of determining tonality...
simply using our trained ears... without perfect pitch it's very difficult to determine pitch without reference... and there are many ways to create reference... I have no problem reading and writing music without an instrument... for better or worse... but I think most can be trained to do so... that's pretty much required in the profession.

How do you define function... I generally refer to function as relationships between elements in a tonal system which we determine which elements will determine the tonality.... different systems will have different elements determining function...

I don't limit function to what only my ears accept or have been trained to hear. I'm alright with self contained or individual systems...

And I'm OK with single element, one tonic... Depending on what that tonic is... the same melodic or harmonic structure or extended section of melodic and harmonic structures will be different depending on what that tonic is.
I'm ok and can hear function being relationship of a chord to a tonal center... and not simply the basic three of Functional Harmony... any system of structural principles used to control their relationships... chord or pitch associations...

I like different systems used simultaneously... like jazz. Which can change with each performance... or not.

I don't have preset divine tonal tendencies...but I can recognize implied tendencies.

Tonal systems are any set of notes, chords etc... whatever we decide to use as the elements of the relationships between which we use to determine tonality. And the structural principles controlling those relationships... Riemann's Functional Harmony is a tonal system... Many don't recognize the usage... give then another 50 years...

Again we differ on the meaning of hearing... the musical logic or mathematical, intellectual aspects of musical hearing have just as much merit as the psychological aspects... to me they're intertwined...

The reference to faster... is most can learn chord scales and hear very quickly... they can become aware of complete vertical note collections and any given point ... fast... no work involved.... and the application of using is also fast... as compared to any method ... you don't have to understand to use.... of course that's usually what it sounds like... but still... it's fairly simple ... and fast, do the work required to understand... when you need it. I agree... it is a technique... an application used as a technique... OK... who cares... If that technique opens doors for musicians to begin the long road to playing jazz... cool.

Ok..sorry I have gigs.... quickly..."Blue" used in jazz implies a whole lot of hearing to me...

I don't know you, don't know your playing...I would like to, I respect your sincerity, knowledge and since of music... But I'm old... I did all my early research listening and playing music... and spent way too much time in libraries and academia...yada, yada....
Access is basically unlimited in recent years... you either want to know or you don't... Reg

Many thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience on this forum.
Nuff