The levels of understanding modes

[fep]

You said it all at advanced. "Modes are only really useful for modal music". The confusion stems from forcing modes on a system (jazz) of playing CHORDAL music.

Small point but modes are useful for communicating in functional music.

Trumpet player says: "That sounded cool, what scale where you using over that G7 chord?"

Guitar player says: "Mixolydian".

I wouldn't know how else to answer that, saying "The C major scale" or saying "The G major scale with a flat 7" just doesn't seem right to me.

[gersdal]

Small point but modes are useful for communicating in functional music.

Trumpet player says: "That sounded cool, what scale where you using over that G7 chord?"

Guitar player says: "Mixolydian".

I wouldn't know how else to answer that, saying "The C major scale" or saying "The G major scale with a flat 7" just doesn't seem right to me.

Agree, but that would be scale rather than mode IMHO.

[wolflen]

my take:

novice guitarist .. wow..i know a scale !!! other novice guitarist: kewl..hey do you know "modes"... novice guitarist: whats a mode..? other novice guitarist: its like a super scale that sound entirely different when you solo..

studio guitarist looking at chart of miles davis tune "tutu" solo section..hmmm..lets see 16 bars EbMaj7#11 Gmi11 Fmi 11 B11 D11 and back to EbMaj7#11 .. A lydian dominate in A or C or Eb or Gb would sound ok over that..

[whatswisdom]

...modes are useful for communicating in functional music..."what scale where you using over that G7 chord?"...Guitar player says: "Mixolydian."

Nothing more consise than that, fep. It all comes down to how well you know your major scale. To quote Goodrick, from Advancing Guitarist, "modes are important." (Of course he rightfully says the same thing about triads, playing on one string et al.) If you truly know your major scale you will know that there are (amongst other things), beginning with do re mi (Ionian) SEVEN distinct SOUNDS available to you at all times. For me, that is the essence of modes. And the nice thing about it is that when you've got a mode down solid in one key, it's not a huge task to learn it in the other eleven keys; and that should be your first order of business, IMHO. The sound never changes. The best way to master these is to sing the scale of each mode until you can do each one from memory any time. Then it's up to you as to how you want to organize and control those sounds when you play over changes. Thats just modes in the context of the major scale. When you've got a firm handle on those seven distinct sounds, then check out how they sound when you go to a different scale. Melodic Minor should be your next choice...

[gersdal]

Trumpet player says: "That sounded cool, what scale where you using over that G7 chord?"
Guitar player says: "Mixolydian".

To be pedantic you could probably also say with good accuracy that there was nothing special about it and that you just stayed in C major as the key of the tune / harmonic element dictated.

However, if you did something special like throwing in some altered scale, I would rather say that I played altered scale (and I would never ever say that I played one of the modes of the melodic minor scale ;-) ).

[whatswisdom]

...I would rather say that I played altered scale (and I would never ever say that I played one of the modes of the melodic minor scale ;-) ).

Not so. You'd be playing the 7th mode of Melodic Minor, which in jazz language is known as "the altered scale."

[JakeAcci]

i think that i'm making a similar point as you, but in a different way. i study jazz and classical. classical guitarists certainly play modal music (Bach, etc) but they don't struggle with all the items that you have noted in columns 2 and 3. they study theory, practice scales, modes, arepeggios, etc. etc. and then they just play their pieces as the composers have written them. i have spent a good deal of time around classical guitar professors and students alike. i've never heard them express frustration as is noted here. and the reason seems obvious to me. they're not struggling with cool solos.

I think it's fair to say the dilemma being discussed is apparent on message boards and among players who may be somewhat familiar with improvisation, but not at the stage, harmonically, where they can articulate cadences or even change to the right key on the right measure.

I'm coming from a rock/folk background and deal with students that start with that music as well, and I think that's a much more common progression than classical to jazz, at least if message boards are any indication. I really can't say anything about a classical guitarist's transition to becoming more fluent with jazz as I know very little of the varying approaches to classical guitar pedagogy.

put another way, you have defined a problem/challenge. i don't doubt that it's real. but what is the solution to the problem?

What I like about the original post is that I think those charts themselves are the solution, especially if we all pitch in to tweak them a bit and make them more universal or accurate.

Personally, I see a lot of power in articulating different levels of understanding (of anything, really.) Personal knowledge and ability is an evolution. If, ten years ago, somebody had showed me Gersdal's chart it would have instantly made my playing (jazz over standards) much better. That is of course only if I was willing to accept and understand that he was right.

Too many players come into jazz asking about mode/chord relationships when the fact is that all of these standard tunes can be navigated, at a first stage, by knowing the key centers at each moment, targeting chord tones, and understanding how to handle any chord tones that are not in the key of the moment.

Anyway, I think the solution is very simple:

1. Explain what a mode is and what it is not.

2. Explain where modes are relevant and where they are not.

People will disagree about potential details within both explanations but I strongly believe most good jazz players and educators - from Goodrick to Bergonzi to Bruno - will come to similar conclusions possibly with different language.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Not so. You'd be playing the 7th mode of Melodic Minor, which in jazz language is known as "the altered scale."

He said "I would rather say..." I, too, find it "odd" to refer to the altered scale as a mode of the Jazz minor scale. Not technically incorrect, just odd. For example, the seventh mode has a diminished fourth, not a major third. Would you really write out an altered lick with a diminished fourth in it?

[JakeAcci]

trying to teach a student harmonic analysis when they want to learn the finger patterns for the modes is not necessarily fruitful.

Hehe this is true, and I think the nuance of this statement should be explored.

A student who doesn't understand harmonic analysis may not get much benefit from knowing fingerings for modes, unless if they are playing strictly over extremely simple vamps.

The gap needs to be bridged, and it's often hard to do.

"What's the best fingering for Locrian?"

"Do you know what Locrian is?"

"It's a mode that sounds cool and works for m7b5 chords"

"Do you know the major scale?"

"Ionian, of course."

"Ok, it's just that. It's those same notes but the 'root' of locrian is the seventh degree of the major scale. The fingerings can be the same. It's the same group of notes."

"No I already know the ionian mode, I want a good fingering for the locrian. Can you make a chart or tab for me?"

"facepalm"

"By the way I want one with the root on the low string so I know where to start"

[JakeAcci]

studio guitarist looking at chart of miles davis tune "tutu" solo section..hmmm..lets see 16 bars EbMaj7#11 Gmi11 Fmi 11 B11 D11 and back to EbMaj7#11 .. A lydian dominate in A or C or Eb or Gb would sound ok over that..

I'm confused. Lydian Dominant over the whole thing?

[fep]

The interesting thing for me is off course that modes are really not interesting at all.

+1

Modes, Much Ado About Nothing.

[Nuff Said]

The logic is simple, play a specific Mode over a specific chord, its called "Chord Scale Theory".

By reading this thread I'm beginning to know where the confusion is coming from.

Nuff

[whatswisdom]

I'm confused. Lydian Dominant over the whole thing?

I'm confused too. Does he mean the key of A Lydian Dominate (sp?) over the whole prog; or is it that a lydian dominant scale will suffice?

[gersdal]

By reading this thread I'm beginning to know where the confusion is coming from.

My opinion is that the confusion is coming from a lot of people being very convinced about their understanding of anything to do with chord scales, modes or other systems of understanding improvisation. If you are a guitar player and can make the CST work for you, I´m happy for you. However, If you are teaching or contributing in discussion groups, my view represented in my first post is that it is good to know that there is not one and only one truth. And also you will find that other guitarists find stable situations where improvisation works well for them at different levels.

[gersdal]

"What's the best fingering for Locrian?"

"Do you know what Locrian is?"

"It's a mode that sounds cool and works for m7b5 chords"

"Do you know the major scale?"

"Ionian, of course."

"Ok, it's just that. It's those same notes but the 'root' of locrian is the seventh degree of the major scale. The fingerings can be the same. It's the same group of notes."

"No I already know the ionian mode, I want a good fingering for the locrian. Can you make a chart or tab for me?"

"facepalm"

"By the way I want one with the root on the low string so I know where to start"

LOL

[ottocat]

Per your description ,I'd say honestly I'm between a 4 and a 5.
I studied modes for years.More of a fusion player than pure "Jazz".
IMO improv is improv ,the more tools you have to use the better the improv.
So I'm reading George Russell's book on Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization .Most of it is over my head . That being said ,I did get something very interesting out of it . The Lydian has more tonal gravity than Ionian.
Fiddling with the guitar in my lap .Key of C .Ok I know C Ionian and F Lydian are the same notes . F,G,A,B,on the lowest string are all whole steps . Change strings to the A 3rd fret note C ,D,E , change to the D string note F , the same pattern repeats . Hey I recognize this pattern . Whole step, whole step,
Whole step change strings 1/2 step , whole step ,whole step ,change strings,
1/2 step. I must be a genius . Wait a minute . I'm in C .The C major scale has a pattern of whole ,whole ,half ,whole , whole , whole ,half step .Of couse the pattern stays consistent you dummy , you just re-invented diatonic harmony . All I was doing was playing a C scale from the lowest note to the highest note on my instrument. I Knew the words but, now I see the picture.
Each mode is a little branch off the pattern .Each chord tone is contained in the master pattern . Duh I knew all this . I just didn't "see" it , I've heard it all my life . The pattern shifts when you change keys .Still the same pattern .
There are 5 more notes possible to play ,having a specific Out going tonal Gravity ,my choice . I can look at the neck and see the pattern ,for the key.
Probably a bunch of blab but,
I got it off my chest .
I think visualizing the neck is important
Dots and spaces are just black and white keys on six
Pianos
OTTO

[whatswisdom]

Modes, Much Ado About Nothing.

...or to put it another way: So What.

[wolflen]

I'm confused. Lydian Dominant over the whole thing?

my point:
part of the confusion with modes..using the chart as a guide...and not a bad one i say..is just that..i created an arbitrary progression for a imagined studio guitarist..who has an unknown ability and the reasons why he choose to play against the progression are unknown and the outcome is also..

would it sound good..who knows..perhaps if larry carlton were to take a chance at it..he could navigate a very tasty solo..and when asked what modes he played..he might say..modes?? no..i just played a series of augmented triads..

the thing with guitarist playing modes.. it has become almost a "mystical rite of passage"..ahhh yes young guitarwalker..you are ready for modal initiation..

it has taken on a life of its own and has a following of mostly hungry young players that don't have a solid foundation of diatonic harmony..and many don't want one..but just want to emulate a guitar hero who once muttered the word mode..and everyone bowed their head and began to copy note for note the sacred solo..and share it with their own denomination of the modal religion..

even with my example..if one were to play in a given passage of 'tutu" which would be a good place to use "modes" as there is lots of "static harmony" (one chord vamping)..it is not a "modal" piece..

there is enough harmonic and melodic source material to create the most elaborate and "outside" sounding lines possible (thank you eric dolphy) and not have a trace of "modal mojo" on them

play well

wolf

[Rich Cochrane]

I guess I would disagree with you in general on your statement. A functional tune like "All The Things You Are" is IMHO best viewed as harmonic elements (bricks) and played pretty much like key centre improvisation.[...] It is also much easier way of thinking that you are playing C major all the way.

Yes, agreed; I guess it's more a question of what analytical perspective actually yields somethng of practical/pedagogic value... but even on a ii-V I like to see the chords under my fingers and see the "major scale" transform into briefly a Dorian, then Mixolydian etc. It affects my note choices for sure. Well, on a good day anyway...

But these are just different ways of saying the same things; like you I had a rock background and learned "the modes" as part of the initiation process, like wolflen says. So this way of thinking is, and will probably always be, the most natural for me.

Your reference to "bricks" is interesting -- have you worked with Conrad Cork's book by any chance? I have a copy but have never really got into it; I'd be interested to know your view (maybe in another thread...). [EDIT: Which I just created.]

[matt.guitarteacher]

How about this level:

-1 : Modes are simply fingering positions up the neck. "D Dorian. That's C major at the 10th fret."

I run into this all of the time. Guitarists will refer to a given caged fingering (regardless of what the root of the scale is) as Dorian or whatever.

[bako]

For me the idea of modes and ragas kind of merged in my mind initially, probably a product of the era (think John Coltrane meets Ravi Shankar).
I practiced scales against a drone. I would play modally derived single and multiple note ideas.
This was excellent ear training and harmonic inventory taking. The info gathered in this fashion can be applied in virtually any musical context.

George Russell's book confounded me mostly but gave me this one powerful idea. A path to hearing chromatically could be found through learning a
group of scales that collectively address all the interval combinations. A more manageable study method than grappling with all 12 chromatic tones.

Advancing Guitarist was a great book that reinforced many good ideas and raised my commitment to better absorb fundamentals.
I took away the idea of understanding modes from 2 different viewpoints, derivative of a parent scale and parallel to a common root.

What I call modes, might be more accurately described as the "harmonics aspects of scales".
The detailed study of these harmonic aspects are training wheels and not an end destination.

Pre-internet, I never heard the expression Chord Scale Theory. I never met anyone who viewed scales/modes in disdain as an evil false prophet.
It is hard for me to imagine a world full of people applying chord/scale formulas oblivious to the result.
Living in the small village of NYC didn't fully prepare me for the things I would later hear about.

A great improvisor can make a strong musical statement with 1 or 2 notes.
It is not the fault of a mode if you or I fail to do so with 7 notes.

I don't believe any "mechanical methodology" (an expression that I learned from Reg) is a great path to learning style.
For that it is better to go straight to the source, the music.

Whatever confusion I experienced always decreased by digging in and solidifying fundamentals, by experimenting and observing the results.

I view melodies and chords as part of the same harmonic continuum. Scales/modes are just a more fleshed out version of a chord.
I don't believe in "avoid notes". I do believe in the intelligent use of the available resources each mode offers.
As my hearing improves so do my powers of discretion.

I never believed in the existence of "modal fingerings". Modal sounds are created by a hierarchy of notes.
The bass note and accompaniment often assert greater influence than the melody.
Play one scale based phrase and change the drone note. Each time the drone changes, the same line takes on a new meaning.
The fingerings that start and end on each tone I think of as scale inversions.

I try not to draw hard lines between the varying possible harmonic frameworks.
1 chord, vamp structures, multiple harmonies pivoting around a pedal tone, key centered progressions, rapid modulating keys, etc.
I don't accept the terms (for myself) non-functioning or atonal. Any harmonies that can connect musically to one another must be on some level functional.
To me atonality is tonalities shifting more rapidly or denser than I can absorb at my present level of comprehension.
Perhaps, tomorrow that will change....

These days I still practice against drones, moving between modes, making hybrid chord scales, trying to teach myself to hear additional harmonic relationships.
When I play, I try to focus on drawing out commonalities or differences between the evolving harmonies.

[Jazzpunk]

Question: Two advanced players (equal in skill) have opposing view points on the value of being able to view fingerings as isolated modes. Who than does the student trust to be right?

[mr. beaumont]

If both of the advanced players insist their way is the only way, both are wrong and should not be trusted.

[aniss1001]

I never thought there was anything confusing about modes but after reading this thread I definately am confused

[AlsoRan]

I never thought there was anything confusing about modes but after reading this thread I definately am confused

Ha! Ha!

That was a funny post! You are probably not going to be the only one confused.