Difference between Blues and Jazz Blues

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Blues is the foundation. If you don't respect the blues you should not be playing music.

[jads57]

At a Blues Gig a bunch of regular folks show up to dance to simple shuffle beats w/ simple changes.

At a Jazz/Blues gig a bunch of unemployed musicians show up to sit in!

[christianm77]

Jazzy blues uses a series of approaches and substitutions. Here's a table of blues progressions starting at straight blues to jazzier blues. I'll leave to the reader to figure out the substitutions and approaches.

Attachment 13147

That's a handy chart!

[christianm77]

So, why is Billie Holiday a jazz singer and Bessie Smith a blues singer huh? :-) Is Lonnie Johnson a jazz guitarist or a bluesman?

I think it's all just labels. Go back far enough and jazz and blues are the same style of music, or part of a continuum. More recently we've had guys like Mike Stern and Sco to remind us of that.

[Robertkoa]

Even though i would describe myself as a jazz guitar player with a blues background,i allways find myself wishing it could all just be called music.I love that line in the film the Blues brothers when the barmaid states that they have both kinds of music in their bar,Country and western.

Of course it's all Music
But -as a writer or even as a Player- it's actually great to have( broadly)specific Styles and "Cross Pollinate" or Combine Them retaining their Characteristics versus Homogenizing them all into one thing- two different results - both valid.
For example - I like and can "feel" some Brazilian Rhythms and some are easy for me to instantly play the Rhythms and always LOVED the chords - "Girl From Ipanema" was a "Hit" on AM Radio.
So a Jazz Guitarist would write something in that Style.. BUT-.as a " Harmonically Expanded " [ hopefully -lol] Rock/R&B Musician - I might program an almost Hip Hop type beat that fits with Bossa type closed Voicings ( and I want to learn and get more of those down- I have used Jazz type chords a long time but NOT in ii- V- I's).
No distortion on the Chords- no Rapping-
no sampling- less repetition- and possibly more secondary Rhythms...but this could be really good...or it might suck...but I will instantly know the difference...lol.
So my point is there is a difference between Thinking " It's all Music" and" Labels".

Labels are great.
Once I got onstage with seasoned Jazz Guys and I have a cool 6/8 Blues thing I wrote years ago to Jam with Jazz Guys
( no head) - I showed them unplugged on the Guy's 335( 30 seconds) - it's a bit like "All Blues" but in Major then it goes to each Relative Minor but comes right back to home Key.
And I gave a BRIEF description and played the chords ( labels!)-
and they nodded their heads and "got it".
And they did!

I was scared to take a Solo ( lol).
But they played near perfect behind my Chords after a 15 second description and telling them how it goes thru the Relative Minors ( kind of like "Moondance" Van Morrison on each Relative Minor )
Scary Jazz Guys- they played it like it was rehearsed ( it's very easy to Solo on anyway ) didn't bat an eye and solo'd etc.

I loved how Steely Dan expanded Blues and Stevie Wonder expanded R&B- those two are the best "Fusion" so far- to my ears.

I now realize that Jazz Soloing ( and Theory) is the best way to play inside and or outside over any changes or slice and dice them if you want.

And that Jazz Harmony is probably the best way to create " Changes"of any type and get in and out of Keys and / Or Chordal Regions the easiest way because there is more "Applied Theory" on Jazz Guitar than
other "schools" AND Jazz Guys just like you Guys do here ...can give you the History ..Theory or often better the SHORTHAND always works...way to "get there" Modulate
etc. tie things together...

It's a few months later and I think my Concept is clearer and I even hear my own
"favorite " Guitar Voicings a bit differently now...

It would be pointless for me to play Standards because you guys are doing a great Job on those now and Standards are not my "Roots" and I would have nothing to add to that...

Blues and even Jazz Blues -maybe a different story- maybe ...

R&B is a very " Virgin" Territory though in
many ways...and remember Fugues , Minuets, Waltz, Swing were all the Dance Music of their Era..it is possible to entertain the Listeners and keep them Dancing .

..So I am doing the ' Crash Course in Applied Theory' then in late 2016 will put out some stuff and see what happens -

I expect to make some waves but will accept any result.

[JonR]

So, why is Billie Holiday a jazz singer and Bessie Smith a blues singer huh? :-) Is Lonnie Johnson a jazz guitarist or a bluesman?

I think it's all just labels.

Right. Like music theory, that's all just labels too.

Go back far enough and jazz and blues are the same style of music, or part of a continuum.

They're from the same African-American cultural heritage, that's for sure.
And the pigeon-holing of generic labels is partly a commercial device, to help sell stuff.

But - as with music theory - the labels are useful for helping us talk about the music. After all there is a big difference between Howlin' Wolf and Nat King Cole, or between Big Bill Broonzy and George Benson. Those are fundamental stylistic differences, and labels like "blues" and "jazz" are useful ballpark terms.
You're right they're not separate - they're more like two ends of a spectrum, with a big central area of overlap.

[Robertkoa]

Right. Like music theory, that's all just labels too.
They're from the same African-American cultural heritage, that's for sure.
And the pigeon-holing of generic labels is partly a commercial device, to help sell stuff.

But - as with music theory - the labels are useful for helping us talk about the music. After all there is a big difference between Howlin' Wolf and Nat King Cole, or between Big Bill Broonzy and George Benson. Those are fundamental stylistic differences, and labels like "blues" and "jazz" are useful ballpark terms.
You're right they're not separate - they're more like two ends of a spectrum, with a big central area of overlap.

Yes. And one of the reasons I asked and one of the reasons I am here is to learn and get better at Harmonically Expanding Blues and R&B..not just melodically ...and not just expanding by adding passing chords but by expanding the Form(s) .
For example very few Blues- even Jazz Blues ever Modulate to a New Key fully ...then return to the Home Key right ?

[mrcee]

I was interested to hear recently that Steely Dan were really into Little Jr. Parker.

[wolflen]

I was interested to hear recently that Steely Dan were really into Little Jr. Parker.

the dans pretzel logic tune..is a good example of jazz blues....I think they took the "studio" band as far as you can take it .. today groups like "Foreplay" and others have drawn on the Dans formula..

[jazzguy100]

blues played by jazz players. I'd like to hear jazz played by blues players

[kris]

blues played by jazz players. I'd like to hear jazz played by blues players

[Robertkoa]

blues played by jazz players. I'd like to hear jazz played by blues players

George Benson...lol.
I know that's not what you meant.
Actually even Benson's early career was not playing straight I- IV-V "Chicago" type Blues.
Actually Benson to my ears is still the "Blue-est" of all the the Trad Jazz Guitarists ( that I've heard).

And I guess where Traditional 'Straight' Blues starts turning to Jazz is with the ii chord featured prominently-
As soon as that happens in the Changes- you have to address it when soloing...and it has a more sophisticated sound...

And then that can be extended...
but why didn' t Bird create some kind of Modulating Blues Form ?



@Wolf- Pretzel Logic is a good example
.
"Chain Lightning" by Steely Dan is another example where they have a lot of Blues feel and it sounds like Jazz Blues but the "Changes" are not quite Blues.

So we have Chicago Blues or Rock Blues..
Then we have Blues with different " "Changes" which is tricky from a Composition view...because you can lose the feel of Blues if you stray too far
from the "Form".
But who cares - if it sounds good and is fun to Solo over and fun/ exciting for the Listener...

Blues - Bird - Exercise





@Wolf - Steely Dan " Pretzel Logic" and other Steely Dan Tunes like " Chain Lightning" which are not traditional "Blues" Changes ...where
Parker's Blues ( he probably had many variations) are actually Traditional Changes with passing chords in Fifths type progressions passing ii- Vs or ii° -Vs(!) etc.

Do we have a Jazz Blues that goes to a
Minor Key with a full " establishment" of that Key ...and returns to the "Home" Key?

[Jehu]

blues played by jazz players. I'd like to hear jazz played by blues players

[Robertkoa]

Nice Robben Ford clip.

Never heard him swing like that.

Maybe I haven't listened to him that much.

[kofblz]

This is a simplification, but Jazz blues soloing is chord and arppegio-based whereas Blues soloing makes one scale fit over a whole chord progression. Once you start playing arpeggios and hitting those 3rds and 6ths you are moving into a jazzier, and harmonically wider area.

Or -

Pentatonic blues soloing is about playing the most obvious notes and riding them for all they're worth. Jazz soloing avoids the obvious 'melody' notes and paints its picture with all those 'background' and unused harmony notes. It's more about painting the background of a picture while Blues soloing is all about the one object in the foreground.

[fumblefingers]

The main differences between the two forms are:

jazz blues has more harmonic and melodic variation

[gggomez]

Are these blues or jazz blues? By some of the propounded 'definitions' they are not jazz as they are very much one pentatonic scale over all chords (and heaven forbid all that bending and sliding Louis teases us with)

Ultimately it is all music. Imagine what Louis Armstrong jamming with Reign Wolf would sound like.

[KirkP]

Blues can be played with various degrees of harmonic or melodic complexity. When it's a high degree, people start thinking of it as jazz. Complexity doesn't necessarily make it superior, but if done well it can make it much more interesting.

[mrcee]

I think that jazz blues, if that's the term we're using, has rhythmic differences to. Maybe more syncopated and less stiff?
More flexible. With less of a reliance on shuffle rhythms.

[mrcee]

From limited personal experience syncopation and chromaticism are real deal breakers for a jazz player sitting in with straight blues guys. Rock players to. It makes them uncomfortable. and versa visa.

[gggomez]

Jazzer and a blues player in beautiful harmony.

Perhaps the key if/when crossing over is to listen.

[gggomez]

who can forget srv's beautiful kenny burrel cover

and here is some benson playing rock me baby

[JonR]

Are these blues or jazz blues? By some of the propounded 'definitions' they are not jazz as they are very much one pentatonic scale over all chords (and heaven forbid all that bending and sliding Louis teases us with)
...

St James Infirmary is an old folk song played by a jazz musician with blues inflections.
(I think that covers most bases... )
BTW, blues is all about "bending and sliding". The minor pentatonic is just a fixed base to start from, and for a particular style of blues at that. It was only ever a crude approximation of "blues scale".

Ultimately it is all music.

Yeah, but how interesting is that?

As Louis said when asked if he thought of his music as a kind of folk music: "Sure it is. Ain't never heard a horse play it!"

[gggomez]

Perhaps the difference is feel and rhythm. Harmonic sophistication etc does not seem to hold true as per the above magic examples.