Difference between Blues and Jazz Blues

[Robertkoa]

I hear a lot of Blues in Coltrane and when I saw Michael Brecker- he had a great Blues Feel to almost everything except when he played the prettier Classical inspired stuff- and he did some wild pentatonic stuff that reminded me of Hendrix but beyond in some ways.

It is all just Music- but since even though I've played forever- I've never learned to comp "Jazz" Blues Chords- so I'm learning the Forms now and it's become much easier to solo on this but there's a lot that can be done comping stuff so guys like me have to analyze it, and call it names to digest it and then hopefully it will just be "music " as well to me- the soloing part is more instinctive and just hearing it but coming up with cool voicings and alterations and passing chords can get very deep and you seasoned guys do it so well.....

[mrbean]

http://www.swiss-jazz.ch/standards-jazz/BluesAlice.pdf

Jazz Blues.

[Vladan]

The difference is so big, that when I posted my version of Angel Eyes to one blues group on G+, they've deleted it as not suitable for their place.

I tried to understand and did not complain when they deleted my take on "I can't help Falling in Love With You" (ok it's a POP country song whichever way I played it),
in spite of other members posted "These Boots Are Made For Walking" (original) without any problems, but deleting Angel Eyes ...

I wanted to tell them they should rename the group to "The 12 Bar Texas Roadhouse Shuffle", but just signed out instead.

[GetReadyMan]

Jazzy blues uses a series of approaches and substitutions. Here's a table of blues progressions starting at straight blues to jazzier blues. I'll leave to the reader to figure out the substitutions and approaches.

[fumblefingers]

Nice post from UNT's distinguished jazz educator and critically acclaimed pianist Dan Hearle.


From Joe Pass. I'll post a few things from Joe if you like. This was covered in a very basic, easy to understand, and now out of print book entitled "Chord Encounters for Guitar Book 1 - Blues, Chords & Substitutions". Hansen Music, Los Angeles, 1979.

Basic 12 bar blues:

I7 / IV7 / I7 / I7 /

IV7 / IV7 / I7 / I7 /

V7 / V7 or IV7 / I7 / V7 /


Jazz Blues - first idea - Extensions:

I13 / IV9 / I13 / I13 /

IV9 / IV9 / I13 / I13 /

V7#9 / V7#9 or IV9 / I13 / V7#9 /


Try both with the same old Albert King and BB King licks and see what happens. Then adjust what you play on the second one. From there Joe adds a few more simple ideas to spice things up. Once you do that there is no turning back to your old Clapton playing.

[Vladan]

EDIT-OK ( thanks ) - just listened to Blues For Alice and I hear that as a harmonically expanded Blues Form- I'd rather hear just the changes without the melody to get more of a feel for the chords...also I want to hear if the chords hold together well on their own OR if they need the melody to hold them together seamlessly....

Here you are. Try playing some blues head, melody, over it and you may experience a harmonic relationship ... miracle? .... I just checked with head of Billie's Bounce (about the only one head I realy know) and it fited perfectly. Should have Bird did that, they'd write him a book about.

[fumblefingers]

Again from Joe Pass, here are three variations to the last two bars of the 12 bar blues, the last two bars being the Turnaround:


As above: I13 / V7#9 /

Variation #1: I7 / II7 V7 /

Variation #2: I7 VI7 / II7 V7 /

Variation #3: I13 VI7#9 / II7 Vsus4 /

[Paultergeist]

Just wanted to say a quick "thank you" to (poster) "GetReadyMan's" really helpful chart of blues progressions. There is probably a couple of year's worth of study for me in that one chart alone....!

Thanks!

[Paultergeist]

Okay.....I have what a fear is a really basic question, but it evolved out of recent lesson material, and I am still not perfectly clear on this point. I would appreciate any clarification. Feel free to talk down to me.....as if I were only three years old....'cause a lot of this stuff can easily fly over my head:

Are *basic* blues progression chords -- using only major triads -- essentially the musical equivalent of dominant 7th chords? This was a point made in a recent lesson -- that a I, IV, V simple blues progression (e.g. A, D, E chords) could alternatively be played with all dominat 7th chords (e.g. A7, D7, E7):

/ A7 / D7 / A7 / A7 /
/ D7 / D7 / A7 / A7 /
/ E7 / D7 / A7 / E7 ://

I notice right away that there are several "V -- to -- I" movements contained within the progression [D7 to A(7); A7 to E(7)], but there are other places where the dominant 7th chord is not followed by a "I" chord in the traditional manner. I am trying to wrap my brain around the logic of what is going on here.....assuming that it is true that the basic triads can all be played as dominant 7ths while still keeping with the musucal function of the progression.

Thanks for any insights.

[tacofarm]

Are *basic* blues progression chords -- using only major triads -- essentially the musical equivalent of dominant 7th chords?

I'd say yes, keep in mind this may depend on the melody, but for a basic blues progression, all dominant 7th chords is what I'd expect.

I notice right away that there are several "V -- to -- I" movements contained within the progression [D7 to A(7); A7 to E(7)],

I would call both of those IV to I, or I to V for the last one if we stick in the key of A.

One common variation is to play I for the first three bars, then to really emphasize I7 before going to the IV chord. You should recognize this sound immediately.

[Paultergeist]

Thanks Tacofarm!

[Tony_C]

Rhythmic, melodic and harmonic content, some of which has been talked about.

Rhythmic: Swing feel. Bass player is walking, drummer is doing the classic ride cymbal thing, chordal players could be comping but if the drum and bass are doing the above mentioned things could get away with a riff and still soudn like jazz. The backing track posted explicitly sounds like jazz for those reasons. Point is the rhythmic section has a feel that overtly comes from jazz. I honestly think this is the biggest thing.

Melodic: Soloists stray beyond the typical blues vocabulary (maj+min pentatonic w/ microbends getting you inbetween on the third and other notes). Arps, scalar stuff, chromatics etc. In other words, jazz vocabulary. Again, I don't think this is the defining feature either. In school I played with a lot of people who were clearly transplanted rock dudes not really choosing to engage with the jazz vocabulary. They would be playing the typical blues-rock minor pentatonic licks and phrasing all over the place. Despite this it would still sound like jazz because of the rhythm section.

Harmonic: You might tend to hear a wider harmonic palette in jazz-blues, but that doesn't mean you will. If you heard B.B. King throw a ii and a V in front of the IV and V chords in a blues like this you wouldn't suddenly call it a jazz blues:

Tunes like Blue Monk can be played as written (in the Real Book at least), as a I IV V blues, and they come out as a jazz blues because of the rhythm section (and soloing choices).

I don't think this question is so complicated (not that I don't enjoy the discussion). You could have someone wailing minor pentatonic, the chords are standard I IV V, but if you hear that ride cymbal pattern you are going to parse it as jazz. You might think 'that soloist sounds like a blues dude', but you'll still hear the collective music as jazz. On the other hand, if the rhythm section was playing a shuffle and you had a sax player throwing out Coltraneisms you'd probably think 'that sax player is clearly a jazz dude' instead of 'this is jazz blues'.

[Flyin' Brian]

I'm going to just write this in the key of G and skip all of the 1-4-5 etc. for this answer. It "evolves" from basic blues to Bird changes. I just pulled this out of my hat, so please excuse any typos, etc.

[KirkP]

Jazz and blues are both nebulous terms that can be applied to many sorts of music, historical and current. I don't think either term by itself is very useful. Terms like "Jump Blues" and "Bebop" have a clear meaning, but "Blues" and "Jazz" are pretty vague.

[EOE]

blues becomes jazz blues when the drummer breaks his bass drum foot peddle.

[Flyin' Brian]

I don't regard the "Bird" blues - aka Blues for Alice or the million other variants of that chord progression as blues.
It doesn't sound like blues because it isn't. It's simply a tonal song form that is 12 bars long.
It's frankly moronic to call it a blues when it sounds much more like "There will never be another you" or a million other tunes with those types of changes.
If you're going to play blues, then play BLUES.
I sometimes think the reason "jazz guys" plug in all the extra changes in a blues is 'cause they suck at
playing blues and prefer to "run changes" since that is easier than trying to sound real on blues. My theory.

If you think that these guys suck at playing the blues, especially Nat Adderley's solo, you're missing the boat. Sorry but blanket statements and "moronic" references kinda piss me off.

[Flyin' Brian]

Hi Brian,

Sorry I definitely didn't mean to impugn any of the great jazzers who play/played blues forms. Of course they are wonderful blues players.
What I was referencing was the way a "certain" type of jazz muso will automatically look down on a three chord blues as "inferior" and then plug in
the "Bird" changes to "signal" their superiority.

I definitely do stand by my thought that the "tonal" blues forms like "Blues for Alice" are not really blues but 12 bar tonal song forms that have very little to do with blues.

You can play "bluesy" over them - of course - (as you can over any tonal music) but they (to me) have very little in common with the Blues sound.

Gotcha...especially on the bolded part. Sorry if I came on too strong. Generalizations are one of my pressure points. I get tweaked by them too easily, and they're all too common on the internet, mostly because of the of the often vague written word, unaccompanied by no vocal inflection or body language. I need to work on that.

[NSJ]

Let's face it even if you were to add a ii-V (eg, preceed the I7 chord with a double sub--tritone sub of a secondary dominant----transforming C7 to Abm7-Db7-C7), the movement of the guide tones is pretty basic and elementary such that that you wind up outsmarting yourself. In fact, the guide tones of the "tritone sub of the secondary dominant or V/V" are exactly the same as the guide tones for the V7 chord anyway. So, really the skeletal Essence of the form is still I7-IV7-V7. And the guidetones for the added ii chord (Abm7) are almost the same as GTs of the added Db7. (Abm7=Gb and Cb, Db7= F and Cb).

[KirkP]

This may not be exactly on topic, but well worth 4 minutes.

[legsilver]

A guitar teacher once told me that 12 bar blues (I-IV-V) is monochromatic. I always thought the whole point of a ii-V-I, or a I-vi-ii-V, was to allow the improviser (and the rhythm section, too), to break free and become more melodic. And more creative.

[Vladan]

Guess this goes under Zippity ...

[goldenwave77]

If you think that these guys suck at playing the blues, especially Nat Adderley's solo, you're missing the boat. Sorry but blanket statements and "moronic" references kinda piss me off.

Great clip....where as usual, the music means far more than words. As an aside, saw an interesting bit with Cannonball A. on youtube where someone has posted episodes from the old TV series hosted by Ralph Gleason, "Jazz Casual". These offer great listening bits, and brief discussions with the players. The segment with Earl Hines was amazing...Hines did a 20-min. demonstration of how he played, beginning with his classical background, and continuing forward in time, to the point where he worked with Diz and Bird on bebop ideas...really interesting piece demonstrating changes in playing styles from the beginnings of post-Dixie-land jazz up to the about 1940-ish....highly recommended.

The bit with Cannonball was also great...makes me want to listen to him, more than I have, as does the above cut.

[Flyin' Brian]

Blues doesn't swing any better than this

[fumblefingers]

there are a lot of insightful explanations above, but to boil it down it has been written that perhaps one of the simplest ways to understand the difference has to do with:

1. a particular style of music (The Blues), and

2. a song form borrowed from that style of music (Jazz Blues)


The first came from the Delta blues men, and is characterized by the 12-bar form with three chords, the blue note, wailing singing and guitar playing, call and response, sad lyrics and tales of woe, etc., etc., etc., per the above.

The latter makes use of the 12-bar blues song form but embellishes it with more harmonic activity, and with soloists applying both jazz vocabulary and traditional blues vocabulary in their expressions.

[boatheelmusic]

For me, the difference between Blues and Jazz Blues comes down to a reliance on the Pentatonic scale in the former, and the "mixolydian mode" in the latter, along with more use of well-developed turnarounds.

The rock guys recognize the pentatonics.