Pat Martino's Fretboard Theory

[Boston Joe]

I did just discover that if you take three major triads a major third apart, the notes form an interesting pentatonic scale that fits over a M7 chord, or alternately a M7(b13) arpeggio. (And other stuff if you rearrange it.)

C E G Ab B

CM7(b13) and AbmM7 pop out at me right away.

Maybe some kind of GMajSus pentatonic.

Nothing particularly "sacred" about it, but it seems I might have some interesting sounds to mess around with out of it.

[docbop]

I did just discover that if you take three major triads a major third apart, the notes form an interesting pentatonic scale that fits over a M7 chord, or alternately a M7(b13) arpeggio. (And other stuff if you rearrange it.)

C E G Ab B

CM7(b13) and AbmM7 pop out at me right away.

Maybe some kind of GMajSus pentatonic.

Nothing particularly "sacred" about it, but it seems I might have some interesting sounds to mess around with out of it.

Want fun take three Augmented triads a half-step apart and your getting into Coltrane territory.

[Bobalou]

And did I say Martino is a musical genius?

Wow getting to be friends with jazz giants like Coltrane and Benny Golson, among others, from such a young age, 14. Wow what a kickstarter to your musical journey and knowledge.

Sounds similar to Metheny's story in a way. Metheny always talks about getting to be around a lot of older players who were better than him, when he was very young back in Kansas City, as where he learned a lot about jazz. Apparently Kansas City back then was like a jazz Mecca.

[Boston Joe]

Want fun take three Augmented triads a half-step apart and your getting into Coltrane territory.

Hm... Let's look at that...

C E G,
Db F A,
D F# A#

-> C, Db, D, E, F, F#, G, A, A#

-> C, Db, D, E, F, Gb, G, A, Bb

-> C, E, G, Bb, Db, F, A, D, G#

C7 with b9, nat9, nat11, b13

C7Sus(b9/nat9/b13)?

I know Scofield uses a D7(nat9/#9) in "Chank", but other than that, I've never seen that combination.

From A:

A, C/C#, E, G/G#, Bb, D, F,

Possible A-7, A7 or AM7

A person could go crazy with this.

[Robertkoa]

Seeing as this thread is being resuscitated I would like to round out or add to my rather large post of observations above.

This hones in on the way Pat sees and handles altered dominants.

I just watched a master class with him on Youtube and it was set in Russia.
It's a little tedious because someone is translating and things go a bit slow.

BUT toward the end of the session one of the students poses the question "how do you use your minor conversion concept when dealing with Altered Dominant chords"

Pat gave an answer that I have not heard him give before.
I will shorten it to this:

We have consonance and dissonance.

Consonance is this context is an unaltered dominant (Pat plays a root and the 5th above)
So he means for example: if playing over a C9 then use Gminor. Ok we knew that. Exactly how he handles the second chord in Sunny.
This was also detailed in his video.

But then he goes on to Dissonance.
Dissonance in this context is an altered dominant chord (Pat plays a root and a semitone above)
So he means for example: if playing over an A7b5#9 then use Bbm.

Well at last he actually said it. Because on his video he didn't. He kept using the 5th conversion.
When I dissected his solos I knew he was NOT using his minor conversions over the altered dominants. He was more often than not very clearly outlining the arpeggios and using notes from the melodic minor a semitone above.....just like most players would.

So when Pat explained the dissonance side of the equation it turns out to be "minor one step above" .....and you are of course just one note away from Melodic Minor one step above (the same thing really)......which is the standard approach.

Just came back to this thread- this part I can understand ....and I am ( basic stuff for you guys ) also " converting" Modes to: Parent Keys and Pentatonics because that spreads a Mode out over the Fingerboard for me....and I relate to Pentatonics more than 7 Note scales ( even though they are enharmonic) and you can Zero in on Chord Tones easier with 5 Note scales than 7 Note ones...and One Mode and one Pentatonic = Chromatic Scale...so this simpler " concept" opens it up for me..
but Martino is a Zen Guitar Fretboard Guru and too advanced conceptually for me....

The other thing about Pat Martino is he does those long even metered Solos just as he hears them for like 3 to 5 minutes ?..not many pauses..if any- for a skinny guy he' s got some serious endurance !
And he' s been great since like 1965 ?- so he is in his 70's right? Had a Stroke and reconstructed himself essentially. Amazing guy.

[kenbennett]

I'm very open minded, but sort of easily put off by stupidity, even when a so-called genius puts it out there. Martino blew it for me when he said this:

“The guitar is structured like no other instrument,” states Martino, “and it unveils itself in a unique way. Like the piano, it has its own fully unique temperament. But the communal language of music that all musicians share—that is, the language of scales, theory, and intervals that we all use when explaining or communicating music—really has nothing specifically to do with any instrument other than the piano.”

The truth is that scales, theory, and intervals have nothing specifically to with ANY instrument--period! It's THEORY. And all of that stuff can be applied to ANY instrument in exactly the same way. The physical execution is different on EVERY instrument, not just the guitar, but the THEORY is the same for all instruments.

And I think Martino is wrong about tempered tuning. Seriously! Both guitar AND piano use equal temperament. Do they not?

Sometimes geniuses, like the rest of us idiots, don't think before they speak.

When a person demonstrates up front that lack of accuracy in speech, it makes me question everything else they say. But, it's Pat Martino, so ... Stand by, I'll read it.

[kenbennett]

Now that you’ve seen how the two parental shapes act as key centers ...

Did you see that? I didn't. What key center? The chords derived by moving one note up or down a half-step do not all fall within the same key!

[Robertkoa]

Rich- re that Martino clip:
A lot of that Urban Blues Feel ( even though not Blues ) and strong Groove that some
Jazz has and some does not .

Nice.

Pat certainly speaks eloquently.
Another cool thing about Martino:

He still plays like he's 50, 40, 30 right ?
And he looks like he's just cruising , riding the Groove, no strain at all....

[pkirk]

I'm very open minded, but sort of easily put off by stupidity, even when a so-called genius puts it out there. Martino blew it for me when he said this:

“The guitar is structured like no other instrument,” states Martino, “and it unveils itself in a unique way. Like the piano, it has its own fully unique temperament. But the communal language of music that all musicians share—that is, the language of scales, theory, and intervals that we all use when explaining or communicating music—really has nothing specifically to do with any instrument other than the piano.”

Both guitar AND piano use equal temperament. Do they not?

I don't think Martino was referring to equal temperament, rather to temperament in a more colloquial sense. But in any case, pianos are not typically tuned to equal temperament.
the wikipedia page explains this a bit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning

it's a pretty subtle business:

All western music, but western classical literature in particular, requires this deviation from the theoretical equal temperament because the music is rarely played within a single octave. A pianist constantly plays notes spread over three and four octaves, so it is critical that the mid and upper range of the treble be stretched to conform to the inharmonic overtones of the lower registers. Since the stretch of octaves is perceived and not measured, the tuner is aware of which octave needs "more" or "less" stretching. A good tuning requires compromise between tonal brilliance, intonation and an awareness of gradation of tone through the compass of the instrument. The amount of stretching necessary to achieve this is a function of string scaling, a complex determination based on the string's tension, length, and diameter.

[princeplanet]

If you make a living in Jazz, you have a unique point of difference, whether by accident or by design. Regardless of what anyone says, I've always sensed that even great Jazz musicians can't help being a little insecure and jealously guard their secret methodologies. After all, they'd like to remain unique, no?

However, being too secretive means you miss out on income from books, seminars etc, so one solution is too invent a way of explaining your "method" that seems like your explaining it, but really doesn't.... Ever wonder why the best players very often make the lousiest teachers???? The best teachers, unfortunately, are average players, and can't really teach you to play like the greats. Ultimately any one who has reached greatness has taught themselves their most important epiphanies/revelations.

Bullshit baffles brains as they say, and not just in the Arts- Religion, Politics, Economics, and Science etc.... the world is full of it. So todays message from Cecil the Sad Cynic is: Go find your own way....

[kenbennett]

I don't think Martino was referring to equal temperament, rather to temperament in a more colloquial sense. But in any case, pianos are not typically tuned to equal temperament.
the wikipedia page explains this a bit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning

it's a pretty subtle business:

All western music, but western classical literature in particular, requires this deviation from the theoretical equal temperament because the music is rarely played within a single octave. A pianist constantly plays notes spread over three and four octaves, so it is critical that the mid and upper range of the treble be stretched to conform to the inharmonic overtones of the lower registers. Since the stretch of octaves is perceived and not measured, the tuner is aware of which octave needs "more" or "less" stretching. A good tuning requires compromise between tonal brilliance, intonation and an awareness of gradation of tone through the compass of the instrument. The amount of stretching necessary to achieve this is a function of string scaling, a complex determination based on the string's tension, length, and diameter.

Thanks, pkirk.

Great info on piano tuning, a lot to think about if one really wants to understand it. I won't be tuning my own piano any time soon.

Whatever Martino meant by temperament, his statement that I quoted is still ridiculous. Unless he is trying to confuse us, he was talking about tuning.

All correctly made guitars that are adjusted properly with respect to intonation, are truly equal-tempered. It is true that guitars (and all fretted string instruments) are subject to intonation problems not found in other instruments. But the intention is true equal temperament.

Now we know that every piano is subject to a unique temperament because of variation in the amount of stretching that the person tuning the piano decides to apply.

That's the truth, and it disagrees with what Martino said, although that is what was trying to say (nothing else would make any sense).

His statement that theory only applies to piano is not just wrong. It's silly. A perfect fourth is a perfect fourth on any instrument. A melodic minor scale is a melodic minor scale on any instrument. A dominant 7 flat 9 is the same set of notes on any instrument.

Pat Martino is a master of the guitar. And his mythology is interesting, and perfectly acceptable, as long as it does not contradict facts.

The term "Sacred Geometry", the title of the article, is not even mentioned in the body of text, much less explained!

I would love to interview Pat. I could drill down and get what he's trying to say and explain his philosophy better than he does.