Night and Day in the Key of C - What is the function of the F#-7b5

[robywon1]

Theory question. On Night and Day in the Key of C, what is the function of the F#-7b5 resolving to the Fm? I hear it all the time on endings also.

[TH]

It sets up the cascade of descending harmony that goes through the chords and the turnaround when it hits the II. Technically I suppose it's the II-7b5 of the III-7 chord, but it's such a cliche that you just learn it as a part of standard vocabulary. That's the way I treat it anyway.
David
Sometime if you encounter the term Modal Interchange, it could fit into that category, looking at the III-7 chord in the way you'd treat a VI-7.

[RyanM]

ii of III (ii/III), I guess
Or maybe it could be analysed as a sub for II7 (V of V)

[cmajor9]

Well, Night and Day is not a very "functional" tune, going back and forth between parallel MA7s. As TruthHertz suggests, you could imagine it as a ii7 going to the III of C (with the following Fmi being a tritone sub for B7), but this might be stretching reality to comply with theory a bit.

Many Cole Porter songs like to play around the edges of functional harmony, which is part of what gives them their interesting character! He likely had Debussy and other "modern" music in his ears as well as more traditional "classic" songs.

[mike g]

I like to think of it as IVmaj to IV min. The F#-7b5 is basically an Fmaj7 with an F# as the root. So whenever I see this #IV-IVmin device it's much easier to think IV maj to IV min....

[JensL]

As Mike said it is a #IV. That is a whole category of subdominant sounds in tonal harmony.

And you do indeed often hear it used in the same way on endings a lot. Another place it is often used is as a substitute for the I chord, check Miles Davis version of I thought about you or Keith Jarret's In love In Vain.

Night and Day is a very functional tune which uses harmony from minor in major, which is btw very typical for Cole Porter.

Jens

[pianist88]

Modal interchange i guess. #iv-7b5 would be a borrowed chord from a parallel lydian scale. So if it's in the key of C, it would be borrowed from C lydian

[twodogs09]

Hi All,

Some very wise counsel already - there is another thing that's worth bearing in mind, though, which is that F#m7b5 is essentially the same thing as Am6.

If an Am chord appeared in a tune in C, we'd just call it Chord VI. The F# bass note is outside the overall key but, as others have said, this is what sets up the descending bass line.

I once read an interview where Dizzy Gillespie was taking about this. What we call a half-diminished chord nowadays, they used to think of as a minor chord with an added 6th in the bass. You sometimes see it on really old song sheets, where they've written stuff like Fm6 - Abm6 - C6, whereas we'd probably call it Dm7b5 - G7b9 - C6.

Another example is where you get Am - F#m7b5 - Bm7b5 - E7b9; a common progression in which the first two chords are basically the same thing, with a changing bass note.

Best wishes,
Jamie

[Reg]

Usually in Night and Day... the F#-7b5 functions as related II-7b5 of V7/III... B7. It's deceptive.
Or you can analyze as chromatic approach to IV-7... Subdominant Minor chord from parallel minor, also very typical... soloing wise, more fun and more choices when playing contiguous II V's ...

Usual resolutions are;
1) chromatic approach to IV or IV-
2) chromatic approach to V or I/5th
3) chromatic passing chord IV to V or V to IV
4) related II-7b5 of V7/III

sometimes deceptive ... V7/I to #IV-7b5.
Used to delay the IV chord, used with Subdominant Minor chords... or chords from parallel minor key.
Reg

[markf]

Hi All,

Some very wise counsel already - there is another thing that's worth bearing in mind, though, which is that F#m7b5 is essentially the same thing as Am6.

Best wishes,
Jamie

that's how I think of it.

[markf]

Brian Wilson used sharp fourth chord half diminished to fourth chord major seven

in the tune "god only knows"

in the B section.

great tune for jazz. I have been trying to figure it out for a few years.

[JonR]

Brian Wilson used sharp fourth chord half diminished to fourth chord major seven

Sheesh, I "invented" that change about 40 years ago (after BW and Cole Porter of course, but what did I know?... ).

in the tune "god only knows"

in the B section.

great tune for jazz. I have been trying to figure it out for a few years.

Great tune indeed. I have notation (lead, bass and chords) if you want it.

[Reg]

When you say Think of the F#-7b5 as really as a A-6 chord what's the rest of the pitch collection... Are you thinking of the A-6/F# as relative Minor of Cmaj... and used as Pivot chord for modal interchange path to A Melodic minor... or something with a natural 6th... ( sounds more like a voicing)... hard to hear as new tonal center. Then to parallel minor of Cmaj. C minor for the F-7 or IV-7 of C-. Then back to Cmaj.

Anyway... the rest of the pitch collection for F#-7b5 would give away the harmonic concept and source being used ... and function.

Unless your simply are referring to using A-6 as sub or voicing for F#-7b5.... or visa versa which depending on context or harmonic implications... is fairly standard.

Sorry...I'm just trying to understand how your thinking of F#-7b5 as A-6...Functionally in context of tune.
#IV-7b5 is is used mainly as approach to IV or IV-, V or passing between IV and V or as part of II V of III. This is pretty standard use.

-Think of Stella... opening chord, E-7b5... typical deceptive use.
-My funny Valentine... Abma7 becomes Ab-6, through parallel minor of Ebmaj. anyway is sub for implied II-7b5 of II V back to relative Maj...Eb.
-Porter's All of You...
Like Someone in Love...almost same use as Night and Day. Use of SDM chords from Parallel Min. Series of II V's or versions of.

Tunes like Just Friends, I Should Care, In Your Sweet Way, Milano, The Duke all use #IV-7b5 as implied II of II V/III or as approach.

Night and Day, still a great tune any way we analysis it... Reg

[JensL]

@Reg I am not sure what you mean. Is this it?:

Thinking the F#m7b5 as an Am6 is odd because in C major that is making the chord a tonic function when it is in fact a subdominant?

I would agree with you on that btw, it is however a common trick to thinkt min6 on m7b5 (as you probably know..) but that is more as a "how or what to play" and not theory and understanding what the chord is doing in the song.

Jens

[markf]

Sheesh, I "invented" that change about 40 years ago (after BW and Cole Porter of course, but what did I know?... ).
Great tune indeed. I have notation (lead, bass and chords) if you want it.

hi thanks...

I konw the chords and melody, I just can't quite figure out how to make it sound good.

[JonR]

hi thanks...

I konw the chords and melody, I just can't quite figure out how to make it sound good.

Right...!
As I see it, the problem in making it a jazz tune is that so much of it is dependent on the arrangement and production. Eg, the non-root bass notes; almost every chord is a slash chord. Also, it seems really important to keep the chords as they are; if they're triads, it often doesn't work to embellish them with extensions as you might in a jazz tune; they lose strength. There's that 4-bar interlude in straight 8s, against the swing of the rest of it - maybe you drop that? And of course there's all those interweaving vocal lines.
So there's not a lot of room for stretching out - it seems very strong in one sense (the melody), but in another sense it's a delicate structure.

Of course, it's possible to "jazz it up" in various ways, but I suspect you'll need to kiss goodbye to some of its magical qualities, in order to bring others to it: to loosen up the feel, extend the chords, etc.

Of course, it's been done...

- survives pretty well there, I'd say. (I can't quite tell how much, if at all, they've changed the chords; they've obviously added sections.)

Less impressed with this one:

- very soon after the original was released, and more faithful. But a bit limp?

[TH]

Ooooo here's that same progression...

And Johnny Mandel too. Hey what's going on in that last progression?
I read all these different analyses and I realize what a tower of Babel "theory" has become.
David

[markf]

Right...!
As I see it, the problem in making it a jazz tune is that so much of it is dependent on the arrangement and production. Eg, the non-root bass notes; almost every chord is a slash chord. Also, it seems really important to keep the chords as they are; if they're triads, it often doesn't work to embellish them with extensions as you might in a jazz tune; they lose strength. There's that 4-bar interlude in straight 8s, against the swing of the rest of it - maybe you drop that? And of course there's all those interweaving vocal lines.
So there's not a lot of room for stretching out - it seems very strong in one sense (the melody), but in another sense it's a delicate structure.

Of course, it's possible to "jazz it up" in various ways, but I suspect you'll need to kiss goodbye to some of its magical qualities, in order to bring others to it: to loosen up the feel, extend the chords, etc.

that is a really good summary of all of the problems I have with this tune.

You're right, it's magical.

I attempted to do it in bossa nova style, but it comes off as you say, limp. the song deserves something better than that.

I tried ballad style, still no good. I keep going back to this tune, but giving up.

I guess it's part of the brilliance of Brian Wilson.

[Reg]

Hey Jens...thanks. Yea, used as sub for F#-7b5... I though might be going to something new as path for new harmonic materials.

Using A melodic minor through Modal interchange of rel. Min. of key of Cmaj. and using F#-7b5 as VI-7b5 of A melodic min. is one of the standard sources G# ... or opening door to A mel.min. And typically any chordal structure from that collection of notes is cool etc... Melodic Min doesn't really have any avoid notes... and with two tritones, you have lots of possibilities.
But I think most just call it random chromatic notes or color... I always have the... Locrian, and as some call it... semilocrian and of course superlocrian,(altered), doors always open when playing through or composing/ arranging for min.7b5's.

We should just play examples and maybe the theory would not sound like so much BS...But I'm OK breaking down theoretical harmony verbally... Reg

[twodogs09]

Brian Wilson used sharp fourth chord half diminished to fourth chord major seven

in the tune "god only knows"

in the B section.

great tune for jazz. I have been trying to figure it out for a few years.

Great tune, as you say. That chord change has always fascinated me, too. Oddly enough, it's not far away from how Wagner uses the famous "Tristan chord", although the classical musicologists would probably say different...

[JonR]

I guess it's part of the brilliance of Brian Wilson.

And also an interesting lesson - maybe - in the differences between pop/rock music and jazz.

WARNING: somewhat OT rant follows...

Jazz, historically, was always about grabbing some current pop hit and messing around with it. Not just copying it faithfully (for fans to sing along), but treating it as raw material, a springboard for personal expression and musical exploration. To begin with, it was all about dance, with the personal expression restricted to relatively brief bursts from star soloists.

Bebop marked the beginning of jazz's retreat from popular dance music, into more rarefied regions of self-referential musical exploration. Pop, meanwhile, carried on with its vocal-led commercialism, with improvisation either removed altogether, or increasingly restricted to little more than novelty breaks.
Rock - inspired by blues - brought improvisation back to some extent, but its main interest was volume and timbre: exploring what improvements in amp and studio technology could do.
The Beatles and Beach Boys led the way in abandoning live performance for recording, and rock came to be as much about making impressive sounds on record, as wowing crowds.

Jazz, meanwhile, seemed to have lost interest in grabbing contemporary pop songs and mistreating them. Jazz musicians had become composers themselves, writing their own vehicles for improvisation (because pop music, by and large, didn't offer quite what they wanted). The less revolutionary jazz musicians simply kept the old pop music alive, making it into "jazz standards". Fusion mixed some rock sounds into jazz practice, but didn't usually import pop or rock songs as such.

IOW, the "art" of pop and rock had come to reside at least as much in arrangement and studio techniques ("production") as in the old factors of melody, harmony and rhythm. The problem for jazz was that melody, harmony and rhythm had been its bread and butter; its improvisational language. Dismantle a typical state-of-the-art pop production, and how much of those old 3 elements are you left with?

The old kind of pop songs had been made with performance in mind. There was a time when commercial success was marked by sales of sheet music - ie, how much people wanted to perform those songs themselves. This was right in line with jazz practice.
Once recordings became the measure of success, the artefact of the disc (45 33, CD, and now the virtual artefact of MP3) became the focus of creativity: something for a non-performing consumer to buy - and which had to contain enough interest to bear repeated listening; hence the employment of whatever bells and whistles the technology could allow.
This didn't make sense in jazz culture at all. Jazz musicians want songs to play, not songs to listen to. The pinnacle of artistic expression (in jazz) is the live performance: different every time, on the whim of the players. The more fixed the artefact of the recording, the more central the role of electronic and digital effects, the less susceptible it is to improvisation techniques which can only deal in notes.

To get back to "God Only Knows" , the original recording is like a precious jewel - that's how it was designed, to be a perfect original artwork, honed and polished once and for all. Jazz, OTOH, still harks back to that pre-sound-recording Eden where all music was live. If you wanted to hear some music, you had to go somewhere where musicians were playing; or pay them to come to you and play. Or play it yourself of course. It was ephemeral by its nature, and the only way to preserve it was by notation - hardly a satisfactory replacement for the experience of listening, and obviously designed for musicians, not for non-musical consumers.
So every performance, of any kind of music, was a one-off event. It was all about the event. The idea of "perfection" (offered by the frozen artefact of a recording) was irrelevant. You just played as well as you could each time. And in jazz, the whole point was to play it different each time anyway: to bring new ideas and understanding to it each time.

In short - - there's two quite different philosophies at play; two different forms of musical "art". There's the eternal one of the "event" - the live performance, in which an audience is as integral as the musicians (and in many cultures, the boundary is blurred). And there's the relatively new one of the "audio recording". In that, many new kinds of artistic creativity need to be invented and applied, to render the music listenable on multiple repetition - and also to appeal to new ways of listening, for example in private. Just to repeat: that ain't jazz!

I now hand you back to the thread...

[markf]

JONR you have thought about that.

great off topic rant.

To get back to "God Only Knows" , the original recording is like a precious jewel - that's how it was designed, to be a perfect original artwork, honed and polished once and for all.

Honed and polished is right.

They took literally months, to finish just one tune, with all kinds of bits and pieces cut and spliced into the final result.

ok, for the last time I will give up on this tune.

which has the same chord progression as night and day and quite a few other tunes in it.

[JonR]

They took literally months, to finish just one tune, with all kinds of bits and pieces cut and spliced into the final result.

Uh-huh. As you can tell, Brian Wilson was a big influence on my posting style...

[markf]

Uh-huh. As you can tell, Brian Wilson was a big influence on my posting style...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Guys, have we already discussed the following in this thread? Maybe the terminology made it go right over my head.

Let's look at the progression in question:

| F#mb5 | Fm7 | Em7 | Ebdim7 | Dm7 | G7 | Cmaj7...

The melody over the first four measure here is basically descending chromatically. How do you improvise over those descending chords?