Night and Day in the Key of C - What is the function of the F#-7b5

**rintincop** · 06-20-2014, 12:41 PM

When I play Night and Day , D7(9) works for the F#mi7 b5 .

**ecj** · 06-20-2014, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by rintincop

When I play Night and Day and I try A-6 instead of the F#mi7 b5 it has almost the same emotional feeling as the F#-7b5. When I sub Fmaj7 or D7 or C7 for that F#mi7 b5 I don't get the same feeling. My ears tell me it's a sub for the A-6 somehow... then moving to iv- then to iii- ...

Look at the bass movement. If you didn't raise the 6th and play the F# you'd be dropping a M3 to F (okay), then bumping up a tritone to B (not okay).

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 06-20-2014, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by rintincop

When I play Night and Day and I try A-6 instead of the F#mi7 b5 it has almost the same emotional feeling as the F#-7b5. When I sub Fmaj7 or D7 or C7 for that F#mi7 b5 I don't get the same feeling. My ears tell me it's a sub for the A-6 somehow... then moving to iv- then to iii- ...

Am6 = A C E F#
F#m7b5 = F# A C E

They are enharmonic, right? "Same" chord.

**Phil in London** · 06-20-2014, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

The Russell ideas are not so complex...
But I consider the song is functional, Phil... when you joined the thread you immediately started from the point of Lydian concept, but I did not do it.
It is not my fault that people call the word tonic different things...
so what I meant is if you put Cmaj7#11 as tonic in functional piece, please, find place for sauna...

People discuss if it is T or S, another guy joins - and says it is T, ok I ask what is S then... we argue for a long time and it turns out that ne meant another T that does not presume any S actually...

just to clarify - in this respect I responded to your question if a Xmaj7#11 chord can be a root chord, and your repeated concern what iv and v would be (if so).

I dont think that there is a relevant connection to N&D though, since to explain the F#m7b5 as an inversion of a tonic Cmaj#11 appears rather artificial. So my Russell-comment only relates to the above question, not to N&D.

**targuit** · 06-20-2014, 02:15 PM

Maybe I don't understand something here, but this debate is about the theoretical function of the F#m7b5 which is the enharmonic equivalent of Am6, as my Sibelius notation software tends to label that chord, to my annoyance. So what is the debate again? Admittedly, I could care less about the theoretical label. In practice my ears tell me that the chord that is closest to this chord is Fma7 with the root raised a half step. Or if you prefer an Am6, as Sibelius insists. What is the problem? And why should anyone care? Not intended to be harsh, just why?

I did not suggest that the chord itself is an inversion, though if you call it an Am6 it clearly is an inversion. The point of the inversion pattern is that starting with the Cma7 inversion (the G fifth as the bass note of the Cma7, you get that nice descending bass pattern. Now in Learning Jazz Standards web site, affiliated with Berklee, if I recall, they list the first chord of the song as Dm7b5, which is of course the enharmonic equivalent of Ab7b5. I actually play that chord in the first measure as the Dm7 on the first beat in the measure and then add the Ab in the bass on the last quarter note leading to the G7. When you get to the Am6 in question, you could play an Fma7 before the Fm7, but the addition of raising the F a half step to F# adds the spice of the tension which works so eloquently in the descending bass pattern.

Do you guys disagree with this analysis?

Jay

**Phil in London** · 06-20-2014, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Maybe I don't understand something here, but this debate is about the theoretical function of the F#m7b5 which is the enharmonic equivalent of Am6, as my Sibelius notation software tends to label that chord, to my annoyance. So what is the debate again? Admittedly, I could care less about the theoretical label. In practice my ears tell me that the chord that is closest to this chord is Fma7 with the root raised a half step. Or if you prefer an Am6, as Sibelius insists. What is the problem? And why should anyone care? Not intended to be harsh, just why?

I did not suggest that the chord itself is an inversion, though if you call it an Am6 it clearly is an inversion. The point of the inversion pattern is that starting with the Cma7 inversion (the G fifth as the bass note of the Cma7, you get that nice descending bass pattern. Now in Learning Jazz Standards web site, affiliated with Berklee, if I recall, they list the first chord of the song as Dm7b5, which is of course the enharmonic equivalent of Ab7b5. I actually play that chord in the first measure as the Dm7 on the first beat in the measure and then add the Ab in the bass on the last quarter note leading to the G7. When you get to the Am6 in question, you could play an Fma7 before the Fm7, but the addition of raising the F a half step to F# adds the spice of the tension which works so eloquently in the descending bass pattern.

Do you guys disagree with this analysis?

Jay

Jay, to ask this in a theory forum is a bit like asking in a gear forum why anybody cares whether a guitar has vintage correct tuners or not. But I agree, at the end we live on a sand-corn in endless space, in the midst of nothingness and billions of galaxies - so yes, who cares...

However, within the foolish world of theory masochists, I beg to point out that Ab7b5 sports a Gb, while Dm7b5 can only show a meagre F. Such little things may matter sometimes, and who knows, potentially even on Andromeda... ;-)

ps: this post is not meant as offence, just kidding a bit...

**targuit** · 06-20-2014, 05:12 PM

I stand corrected, Phil, as I should have written that I play the Dm7b5 on the first and third beat of the measure, then sounding the Ab in the bass. But of course, you are correct.

**rintincop** · 06-24-2014, 05:07 PM

Bill Dobbins says #iv half diminished as a sub for the II7 (D) F# A C E

I do hear it like that when I play Night & Day like this:
D9 F-6 E-7 Ebdim D-7 G7

**ragman1** · 10-09-2016, 12:48 AM

I've just looked at this again. Some of the answers here are truly mind-curdling. Life's got to be simpler than that!

Technically he could have just used an FM7 and stayed diatonic but the F#m7b5 (same notes, F# bass) gives it a bit more pizazz.

You could play an Am6 and it doesn't sound too bad. Or indeed a D7, or D9, but it lacks the chromatic impact.

In the end, who knows? We'd have to ask Mr. Porter!

Night And Day - C - Video Dailymotion

**christianm77** · 10-09-2016, 09:08 AM

TBH this thread is long and I can't remember whether I posted on it or not, let alone whether I agree with myself!

I also haven't read the other comments.

So - #iv =m7b5 chord is something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

Funny thing about it is that it can kind of think of it as both subdominant, tonic or as a secondary dominant.

Subdominant:

In the case of Night and Day, I think about it as a bit like a IVmaj7 chord with a different root - so

Cmaj7 F#m7b5 Fm6 Em7 is not very different from Cmaj7 Fmaj7 Fm6 C, right?

Tonic

That said, the same chord can be used to stand in for the tonic. So a classic one is to use a #ivm7b5 instead of a I chord where the melody (remember that thing?) is on the 3rd, or root of the key.

So, I Thought About You is often played with an Bm7b5 as the first chord, but the original changes have F.

A sort of Lydian chord perhaps?

Secondary Dominant

F#m7b5 (#ivm7b5) can be seen as an inversion of D9 (II9). Often I will play D/F# or D7/F# in this context.

II7-ivm6-I is actually really common in swing era stuff. Sort of a variation of II7-V7-I

In any case, this chord is actually pretty common. look out for it! I'm sure many examples given above

As part of a ii-V

While this isn't the function seen in N&D, this is pretty common (I Thought About You, Green Dolphin Street, Days of Wine and Roses, Body and Soul etc)

#iv7b5 VII7 iiim7 IV7 iim7 V7 I

Farily familiar as a set of ii-V's? In this case we could see the ivm6 as a stand in for the VII7 and a biiio7 .

This gives us this, rather old school progression with descending bassline. Django used this in Djangology:

#ivm7b5 ivm6 iiim7 biiio7 iim7 V7 I

We can change the chord qualities according to what's in the melody.